The West

AC wrote:
>
> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:36:50 -0400,
> Deleted Items (1) <statelyandplump DeleteThis @omphalos.org> wrote:
> > "AC" <taocow DeleteThis @alberni.net> wrote in message
> > news:slrnbn3gdq.85t.taocow@clausen.alberni.net...
> >> On 24 Sep 2003 14:57:05 GMT,
> >> Tamim <hallaril DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Bill O'Meally <OMeallyMD DeleteThis @wise.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > snip
> >> >
> >> >> Perhaps in his Istari form, he only had vague memories of the West.
> >> >> --
> >> >
> >> > Or perhaps he had pretty clear ones but still wanted to revitalize them.
> >> > We often go to places we have been before or see home videos or photos.
> >> > Maybe he was sentimental.
> >>
> >> As I recall, his memory of Valinor was veiled.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Aaron Clausen
> >>
> >> taocow DeleteThis @alberni.net
> >
> > Cite?
>
> Making me look things up when I'm so darn comfy.
>
> "For it is said indeed that being embodied that Istari had need to learn
> much anew by slow experience; and though they knew whence they came the
> memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which
> (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly.
> Thus by enduring free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they
> might redress the evils of that time."
> Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Ta. Saved me doing it.


M.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Stan Brown wrote:
>
> In article <3F715270.F3777A8D.RemoveThis@none.com> in rec.arts.books.tolkien,
> None <none.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote:
> >"Even now my heart
> >desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from
> >him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and
> >of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind
> >of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were
> >in flower!' He sighed and fell silent."
> >
> >While I found it odd that Gandal should wish this, since he had been in
> >Aman whike Feanor was alive,
>
> Odd? Why so?
>
> Have you never wanted to look at a photograph of some long-ago event
> that was a fond memory?

I've read Bill's comment before yours Stan and I'm not slapping my
forehead twice this morning.





<ouch!>


M.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Alison wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:07:46 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
> <OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >"Alison" <news.poster.DeleteThis@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> >news:ul2vmv86bpg17rb8snrmq5j2l6ge3bcl1d@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:08:14 +0100, None <none.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Robert H. Grant wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them?
> >> >
> >> >They lived happily ever after - or until the End of the World,
> >anyway...
> >> >
> >> >> And what became of the West?
> >> >
> >> >Still the same. The West. Houses of the Holy. Hallowed ground. All of
> >> >that and more. Until the End of the World, or so Tolkien tells us.
> >>
> >> A friend and I have a small wager on whether or not Frodo's ship will
> >> disappear hull-down over the horizon at the end of the ROTK film.
> >
> >Hull down? As opposed to capsizing?
>
> No, hull-down as in disappearing over the edge of the horizon of a
> curved world. This was the first major clue to the ancients that the
> earth is a globe, not a plane. On a curved world, the hull of a ship
> disappears while its superstructure or masts are still visible. On a
> flat world, the whole of the ship would be visible on the horizon
> until it simply became too small to see.
>
> Tolkien was very clear (in the Letters, I believe) that ships heading
> for Valinor in the Third Age would be on the "straight path" and would
> appear to an observer on land to be "dwindling" in the distance,
> rather than disappearing over the horizon as ships normally would.

Hmmmmm.

That is a very fair question Alison. I don't know the answer to it.

I have some expecation of grey rain curtains being torn apart in a
Gameboy special effects type extravaganza and then a Robin Williams type
vibrant reality hitting us between the eyes as the ship sights Elvenhome
under a swift sunrise...

<I'm sorry I mentioned that, actually...>


M.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

"Michael O'Neill" <onq.RemoveThis@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:3F72A252.D3000C4@indigo.ie...
> The American wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > nonetheless it shows the Stones had the
> > > power to perceive events remote in both time and space.
> >
> > No, I don't think they could.
> > They only held images from past use.
>
> <snip>
>
> You are wrong on two counts.
>

I don't think so.

Unfinished Tales, THE PALANTÍRI, Note 18:

*****************************
The later note referred to in note 17 treats some of these aspects the
palant?ri slightly differently; in particular the concept "shrouding" seems
differently employed. This note, very hasty and somewhat obscure, reads in
part: "They retained the images received, so that each contained within
itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past. They
could not 'see' in the dark; that is, things that were in the dark were not
recorded by them. They themselves could be and usually were kept in the
dark, because it was much easier then to see the scenes that they
pre­sented, and as the centuries passed to limit their 'overcrowding.'

Marginal jottings asso­ciated with this note are partly illegible, but so
much can be made out, that the remoter the past the clearer the view, while
for distant viewing there was a "proper distance," varying with the Stones,
at which distant objects were clearer. The greater palantíri could look much
further than the lesser; for the lesser the "proper distance" was of the
order of five hundred miles, as between the Orthanc-stone and that of Anor.
"Ithil was too near, but was largely used for [illegible words], not for
personal contacts with Minas Anor."

*********************************

I think Rohan to Aman was more than 500 miles!


Now it's time for you to reply that quotes from UT don't count.

> Firstly, Gandalf [who was not given to boasting] himself states what
> *he* would and presumably could do with the Palantír i.e. "turn it where
> I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion
> the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their
> work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower."


AND Gandalf also says in tLotR "But alone it could do nothing but see small
images of things far off and days remote."
So there's your LotR quote by Gandalf himself.
"Days remote" to me means past images viewed and retained within the Stone.
How did he expect to use it in such a way, as you suggest, that goes against
the above quote unless he thought it was a treasure trove of past stored
images.

Unless I misunderstood your quote.

It sounded like you were saying users could look back in time to any events
of the users choosing.

T.A.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Michael O'Neill <onq.TakeThisOut@indigo.ie> wrote:


> He was an Elf.

So?


> <smirk>




> None.

--
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Michael O'Neill <onq.TakeThisOut@indigo.ie> wrote:
snip

> Would Feanor have let Gandalf look over his shoulder?

> Probably not, the arrogant bastard, but while Tolkien tells us that his
> work was all his own, we know he benefitted from the advice of his wife.
> I suspect he also benefitted from all the creative energies flying
> around Valinor at that time. Nothing occurs in a vacuum, and I doubt if
> Feanor would have conceived either the Silmarils or the Palantírí if he
> had been born under a rock in Middle Earth, far away from Gandalf,
> Galadriel [the light of her hair allegedly inspired him to create the
> Silmarils] and Valinor.


Agreed. I don't exactly understand where we differ.


> M.

--
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

The American wrote:
> "Michael O'Neill" <onq.TakeThisOut@indigo.ie> wrote in message
> news:3F72A252.D3000C4@indigo.ie...
>
>>The American wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>nonetheless it shows the Stones had the
>>>>power to perceive events remote in both time and space.
>>>
>>>No, I don't think they could.
>>>They only held images from past use.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>You are wrong on two counts.

> I don't think so.
>
> Unfinished Tales, THE PALANTÍRI, Note 18:
>
> *****************************
> The later note referred to in note 17 treats some of these aspects the
> palant?ri slightly differently; in particular the concept "shrouding" seems
> differently employed. This note, very hasty and somewhat obscure, reads in
> part: "They retained the images received, so that each contained within
> itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past.

This is very different from your rather absolute statement that "They
*only* held images from past use." (my emphasis). There's no reason why
they can't retain images of things viewed *and* also view new things
from the past. I think this is what Tolkien meant when he clarifies
"They retained images received..." with "..some from a remote past":
this to me implies a time *before* the Palantiri existed, or a past
which was not observed by the Palantir. If it does not, then the line
becomes redundant: *all* the images it views are retained anyway.

This view that any point in the past could be viewed is supported by

> the remoter the past the clearer the view, while
> for distant viewing there was a "proper distance," varying with the Stones,
> at which distant objects were clearer.

If we are just talking about stored images, surely they *all* would be
clear.

> Now it's time for you to reply that quotes from UT don't count.
>
Well, I'm a huge fan of UT, and I certainly would never say that, unless
there is a direct contradiction in LotR (and even then I'd argue that
what is published in UT could sometimes be interpreted as being more
correct than what appears in LotR).

>>Firstly, Gandalf [who was not given to boasting] himself states what
>>*he* would and presumably could do with the Palantír i.e. "turn it where
>>I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion
>>the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their
>>work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower."
>
> AND Gandalf also says in tLotR "But alone it could do nothing but see small
> images of things far off and days remote."

Nothing contradictory in those two statements. Indeed, would Feanor have
allowed someone else to use one of the stones to view him at work? I
doubt it. And for your argument to be right, the Orthanc stone would
have to be *the* one that made the observation (unless all 7 did) for
Gandalf to be able to do this, yet Gandalf speaks with such certainty
that he *could* view those events using the Stone. He surely could not
have known that this particular Stone has images of all those things, so
therefore it seems safe to assume that any of the Stone could view any
part of the past they chose.

> So there's your LotR quote by Gandalf himself.
> "Days remote" to me means past images viewed and retained within the Stone.

Well, here we disagree.

> How did he expect to use it in such a way, as you suggest, that goes against
> the above quote unless he thought it was a treasure trove of past stored
> images.
>
Because I believe it can view anything from the past, just as
Galadriel's mirror can. You aren't going to suggest that Galadriel was a
better craftsperson than Feanor. are you? If Galadriel can do it, then I
see no reason why Feanor could not.

> Unless I misunderstood your quote.
>
> It sounded like you were saying users could look back in time to any events
> of the users choosing.
>
I believe that's what Michael was arguing: it's certainly what I believe.

Jamie

--
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
appearance of either merit or sense."

Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

"Jamie Armstrong" <j.d.armstrong DeleteThis @durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
>
> > How did he expect to use it in such a way, as you suggest, that goes
against
> > the above quote unless he thought it was a treasure trove of past stored
> > images.
> >
> Because I believe it can view anything from the past, just as
> Galadriel's mirror can. You aren't going to suggest that Galadriel was a
> better craftsperson than Feanor. are you? If Galadriel can do it, then I
> see no reason why Feanor could not.
>

Ha ha ha...
That god-damn Mirror.
It showed things in the future too!
Nevermind.
As Pooh would say I have to "Think,Think,Think" this out.
Thanks.

T.A.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Tamim wrote:
>
> Michael O'Neill <onq.TakeThisOut@indigo.ie> wrote:
>
> > He was an Elf.
>
> So?
>
> > <smirk>
>
> > None.
>
> --

<shakes head, laughs>

You posted that he was a *man*.



None.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Tamim wrote:
>
> Michael O'Neill <onq.DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
> snip
>
> > Would Feanor have let Gandalf look over his shoulder?
>
> > Probably not, the arrogant bastard, but while Tolkien tells us that his
> > work was all his own, we know he benefitted from the advice of his wife.
> > I suspect he also benefitted from all the creative energies flying
> > around Valinor at that time. Nothing occurs in a vacuum, and I doubt if
> > Feanor would have conceived either the Silmarils or the Palantírí if he
> > had been born under a rock in Middle Earth, far away from Gandalf,
> > Galadriel [the light of her hair allegedly inspired him to create the
> > Silmarils] and Valinor.
>
> Agreed. I don't exactly understand where we differ.
>
> > M.
>
> --

One place where we differ is your post-editing.

You originally wrote:

"You think Feanor let the likes of Olorin to watch him work?"

and not as quoted above:

"Would Feanor have let Gandalf look over his shoulder?"

The original quote seemed to imply a disparagement of Olorin by Feanor
[in your mind] which is why I rose to the bait and called him an
"arrogant bastard" which isn't entirely true, he was born of a
*legitimate* union.

The difference between us is that while I agree with the sentiment I
disagree with the subtext.

Gandalf would never have sought to "look over Feanors shoulder" visibly
or invisibly, while Feanor would simply have worked in solitude as was
his wont, not for fear of someone copying him, but simply because that
was his creative mode before his rebellion.

Thus Gandalf's desire to see his working practices seems to me to be
merely the fulfilment of the great hunger of the "spirit of inspiration"
to see the greatest master craftsman of the Noldorin Elves at work.

However Gandalf speaks of it as a temptation, as if he knows that even
such a remote prying might not be acceptable to the Gods.

None.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Graham Lockwood wrote:
>
> Michael O'Neill said:
> > The American wrote:
> > <snip>
> >>> nonetheless it shows the Stones had the
> >>> power to perceive events remote in both time and space.
> >>
> >> No, I don't think they could.
> >> They only held images from past use.
> {snip}
> > But the Stones were used by Denethor, Saruman and Aragorn in LotR to see
> > things in *present time*, not the past, as you assert. I cannot recall
> > to mind any instance of past-viewing in LotR.
>
> Ah, but viewing something that happened half a second ago is viewing the
> past but is recent enough that it could easily be considered viewing the
> present. Even modern day video teleconferencing via satelite has noticeable
> delays.

Hair-splitting.

<snarf!>


None
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

The American wrote:
>
> "Michael O'Neill" <onq.DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote in message
> news:3F72A252.D3000C4@indigo.ie...
> > The American wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > nonetheless it shows the Stones had the
> > > > power to perceive events remote in both time and space.
> > >
> > > No, I don't think they could.
> > > They only held images from past use.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > You are wrong on two counts.
> >
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Unfinished Tales, THE PALANTÍRI, Note 18:
>
> *****************************
> The later note referred to in note 17 treats some of these aspects the
> palant?ri slightly differently; in particular the concept "shrouding" seems
> differently employed. This note, very hasty and somewhat obscure, reads in
> part: "They retained the images received, so that each contained within
> itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past. They
> could not 'see' in the dark; that is, things that were in the dark were not
> recorded by them. They themselves could be and usually were kept in the
> dark, because it was much easier then to see the scenes that they
> pre­sented, and as the centuries passed to limit their 'overcrowding.'
>
> Marginal jottings asso­ciated with this note are partly illegible, but so
> much can be made out, that the remoter the past the clearer the view, while
> for distant viewing there was a "proper distance," varying with the Stones,
> at which distant objects were clearer. The greater palantíri could look much
> further than the lesser; for the lesser the "proper distance" was of the
> order of five hundred miles, as between the Orthanc-stone and that of Anor.
> "Ithil was too near, but was largely used for [illegible words], not for
> personal contacts with Minas Anor."
>
> *********************************
>
> I think Rohan to Aman was more than 500 miles!
>
> Now it's time for you to reply that quotes from UT don't count.
>
> > Firstly, Gandalf [who was not given to boasting] himself states what
> > *he* would and presumably could do with the Palantír i.e. "turn it where
> > I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion
> > the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their
> > work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower."
>
> AND Gandalf also says in tLotR "But alone it could do nothing but see small
> images of things far off and days remote."
> So there's your LotR quote by Gandalf himself.
> "Days remote" to me means past images viewed and retained within the Stone.
> How did he expect to use it in such a way, as you suggest, that goes against
> the above quote unless he thought it was a treasure trove of past stored
> images.
>
> Unless I misunderstood your quote.
>
> It sounded like you were saying users could look back in time to any events
> of the users choosing.
>
> T.A.

Hands up on the past directed views, I had forgotten those quotations.

*I* OTOH wasn't saying anything else per se, merely quoting Gandalf and
pointing out what he said.

I don't doubt that an Istari could view the creation of the world using
a Palantír is he wanted to.



None.
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

None said:
{much snippage}
> I don't doubt that an Istari could view the creation of the world using
> a Palantír is he wanted to.

I do. The palantiri were most amenable to "legal" viewers of them. It is
said that *Denethor* had more luck against Sauron than Saruman did for (at
least partly) this very reason. Aragorn was even better because he was THE
legal owner. Gandalf, OTOH, arguably had even LESS of a legal right than
Saruman did. Saruman was legally given the keys of Orthanc by the Steward of
Gondor for the safekeeping of the tower and everything in it, including the
palantir. Gandalf, however, had merely snatched it away from a Hobbit who
had picked it up off the ground from where it lay after being tossed there
by someone who filched it from Saruman. Not exactly a legal chain of
custody. Now, Aragorn might have chosen to declare Gandalf as his legal
palantir-viewer (although he didn't), which would certainly have given him
much more "legitimacy". However, even then I doubt that he could have viewed
something as remote as the "creation of the world" although I don't really
have any evidence for or against that. I should note, however, that you
didn't say "Gandalf", but "an Istari" (which should really have been "an
Istar") and Saruman seems to have been somewhat limited in his
palantir-viewing abilites due to his illegitimate use of it.




||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
 >> Stay informed about: The West