blowing a horn?

lawpoop.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello all -
>
> I seem to recall a part of the Jackson's adaptations of LOTR where the
> crew is fighting a bunch of Orcs, and Gimli blows a giant horn
> attached to a tower.

It's the horn of Helm's Deep

> This hon only men can hear, or something to that
> effect.

I don't think so - everybody seems able to hear it.

> I tried looking this up, but couldn't find anything. I did
> find out about Boromir blowing the horn or Gondor, but that was a
> little hand-held horn, not the giant piece of architecture that I
> remember.
>
> Is this an accurate memory or is my mind playing tricks on me?

It really does exist in the film, and there is _some_ kind of horn in the
book, which must be a much greater instrument than Boromir's, though I
don't know if it's anything like Jackson's imagining.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

lawpoop.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 21, 7:38 pm, Derek Broughton <n....RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>> lawp....RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Hello all -
>>> I seem to recall a part of the Jackson's adaptations of LOTR where the
>>> crew is fighting a bunch of Orcs, and Gimli blows a giant horn
>>> attached to a tower.
>> It's the horn of Helm's Deep
>
> Derek - thanks for clearing this up for me!
>
> Which book/movie is it in?
>
The Two Towers: in the book it's at the end of the Helm's Deep chapter.

However, in the book Gimli has been trapped in the caves with Gamling
and Eomer, and so is separated from Aragorn, Legolas, and Theoden: so
whoever blew the horn of Helm it wasn't Gimli.

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Derek Broughton wrote:
> lawpoop.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>
<snip>

>> Is this an accurate memory or is my mind playing tricks on me?
>
> It really does exist in the film, and there is _some_ kind of horn in the
> book, which must be a much greater instrument than Boromir's, though I
> don't know if it's anything like Jackson's imagining.

I misremembered the scene: I'd forgotten that there was actually "the
great horn of Helm", and just thought it was a random horn blast which
then echoed round:

"And then, sudden and terrible, from the tower above, the sound of the
great horn of Helm rang out.
"All that heard that sound trembled. ...Back from the Deep the echoes
came, blast upon blast, as if on every cliff and hill a mighty herald
stood. But on the walls the men looked up, listening in wonder; for the
echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills;
nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and
free."

There's nothing there that contradicts Jackson's interpretation, but I'm
certain that "the great horn of Helm" is intended to be something
slightly larger than the Horn of Gondor which one man can carry, rather
than an absurd mega-horn built into the fabric of a fortress.

Jamie (who started watching LotR yesterday, and got as far as the
arrival of the elves at Helm's Deep before beating the walls in
frustration: a new record!)
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Jamie Armstrong wrote:

> "And then, sudden and terrible, from the tower above, the sound of the
> great horn of Helm rang out.
> "All that heard that sound trembled. ...Back from the Deep the echoes
> came, blast upon blast, as if on every cliff and hill a mighty herald
> stood. But on the walls the men looked up, listening in wonder; for the
> echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills;
> nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and
> free."
>
> There's nothing there that contradicts Jackson's interpretation, but I'm
> certain that "the great horn of Helm" is intended to be something
> slightly larger than the Horn of Gondor which one man can carry, rather
> than an absurd mega-horn built into the fabric of a fortress.

I certainly never imagined the horn to be like Jackson's idea before seeing
the film, but I don't have a real problem with it. Especially since,
compared to so much of the Helm's Deep part of the movie, it wasn't at all
absurd If one wants to get more mundane, fixed mechanical horns in
towers used to be common - lighthouses used to have hand-cranked fog-horns,
that would sound not unlike this description. That makes much more sense
than something a dwarf could blow, and is not beyond the manufacturing
abilities of Gondor, though obviously not of Rohan.

But I think the telling detail is it's "the horn of Helm", not "the horn of
Helm's Deep" - it suggests it was the horn that Helm used in his lifetime,
though not necessarily one he carried on horseback with him. There's a
long history in myth of heroes (and everybody considers Helm a Hero) who
carry some oversized tool that no ordinary human can handle - or in this
case blow.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:27:20 +0000, Jamie Armstrong
<J.D.Armstrong.DeleteThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:

>Derek Broughton wrote:
>> lawpoop.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>
><snip>
>
>>> Is this an accurate memory or is my mind playing tricks on me?
>>
>> It really does exist in the film, and there is _some_ kind of horn in the
>> book, which must be a much greater instrument than Boromir's, though I
>> don't know if it's anything like Jackson's imagining.
>
>I misremembered the scene: I'd forgotten that there was actually "the
>great horn of Helm", and just thought it was a random horn blast which
>then echoed round:
>
>"And then, sudden and terrible, from the tower above, the sound of the
>great horn of Helm rang out.
>"All that heard that sound trembled. ...Back from the Deep the echoes
>came, blast upon blast, as if on every cliff and hill a mighty herald
>stood. But on the walls the men looked up, listening in wonder; for the
>echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills;
>nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and
>free."

IDHTBIFOM, but, that wouldn't be immediately followed by the arrival
of Gandalf and reinforcements, by any chance, would it?

I mean, the horn-blasts couldn't be behaving that way because /other/
horns were being blown in answer to them?
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Paul S. Person wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:27:20 +0000, Jamie Armstrong
> <J.D.Armstrong DeleteThis @durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>> lawpoop DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Is this an accurate memory or is my mind playing tricks on me?
>>> It really does exist in the film, and there is _some_ kind of horn in the
>>> book, which must be a much greater instrument than Boromir's, though I
>>> don't know if it's anything like Jackson's imagining.
>> I misremembered the scene: I'd forgotten that there was actually "the
>> great horn of Helm", and just thought it was a random horn blast which
>> then echoed round:
>>
>> "And then, sudden and terrible, from the tower above, the sound of the
>> great horn of Helm rang out.
>> "All that heard that sound trembled. ...Back from the Deep the echoes
>> came, blast upon blast, as if on every cliff and hill a mighty herald
>> stood. But on the walls the men looked up, listening in wonder; for the
>> echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills;
>> nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and
>> free."
>
> IDHTBIFOM, but, that wouldn't be immediately followed by the arrival
> of Gandalf and reinforcements, by any chance, would it?
>
> I mean, the horn-blasts couldn't be behaving that way because /other/
> horns were being blown in answer to them?

That was how I remembered it, but I think I was wrong: seven further
paragraphs follow before Erkanbrand and Gandalf pop up, and it seems
fairly clear that *their* horns are separate:

"There suddenly upon a ridge appearead a rider, clad in white, shining
in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind
him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot..."
(TTT, Helm's Deep)

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

"Derek Broughton" <news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:2564956.lp0zkDOnBc@cedar.serverforest.com...

[snip]

>> There's nothing there that contradicts Jackson's interpretation, but I'm
>> certain that "the great horn of Helm" is intended to be something
>> slightly larger than the Horn of Gondor which one man can carry, rather
>> than an absurd mega-horn built into the fabric of a fortress.
>
> I certainly never imagined the horn to be like Jackson's idea before
> seeing
> the film, but I don't have a real problem with it. Especially since,
> compared to so much of the Helm's Deep part of the movie, it wasn't at all
> absurd If one wants to get more mundane, fixed mechanical horns in
> towers used to be common - lighthouses used to have hand-cranked
> fog-horns,
> that would sound not unlike this description. That makes much more sense
> than something a dwarf could blow, and is not beyond the manufacturing
> abilities of Gondor, though obviously not of Rohan.
>
> But I think the telling detail is it's "the horn of Helm", not "the horn
> of
> Helm's Deep" - it suggests it was the horn that Helm used in his lifetime,
> though not necessarily one he carried on horseback with him. There's a
> long history in myth of heroes (and everybody considers Helm a Hero) who
> carry some oversized tool that no ordinary human can handle - or in this
> case blow.

Perhaps the horn was mounted on wheels and was drawn by a horse when Helm
went forth.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Derek Broughton" <news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
> news:2564956.lp0zkDOnBc@cedar.serverforest.com...
>
> [snip]

>>
>> But I think the telling detail is it's "the horn of Helm", not "the horn
>> of
>> Helm's Deep" - it suggests it was the horn that Helm used in his lifetime,
>> though not necessarily one he carried on horseback with him. There's a
>> long history in myth of heroes (and everybody considers Helm a Hero) who
>> carry some oversized tool that no ordinary human can handle - or in this
>> case blow.
>
> Perhaps the horn was mounted on wheels and was drawn by a horse when Helm
> went forth.
>
> Öjevind

That reminds me of the character in Ben Elton's 'Stark'. He'd lost his
knackers in a war and dreamed of an alter ego that needed a wheelbarrow
to carry his enormous testicles.

o.thomson
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:51:26 +0000, Jamie Armstrong
<J.D.Armstrong.DeleteThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:

>Paul S. Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:27:20 +0000, Jamie Armstrong
>> <J.D.Armstrong.DeleteThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>>> lawpoop.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> Is this an accurate memory or is my mind playing tricks on me?
>>>> It really does exist in the film, and there is _some_ kind of horn in the
>>>> book, which must be a much greater instrument than Boromir's, though I
>>>> don't know if it's anything like Jackson's imagining.
>>> I misremembered the scene: I'd forgotten that there was actually "the
>>> great horn of Helm", and just thought it was a random horn blast which
>>> then echoed round:
>>>
>>> "And then, sudden and terrible, from the tower above, the sound of the
>>> great horn of Helm rang out.
>>> "All that heard that sound trembled. ...Back from the Deep the echoes
>>> came, blast upon blast, as if on every cliff and hill a mighty herald
>>> stood. But on the walls the men looked up, listening in wonder; for the
>>> echoes did not die. Ever the horn-blasts wound on among the hills;
>>> nearer now and louder they answered one to another, blowing fierce and
>>> free."
>>
>> IDHTBIFOM, but, that wouldn't be immediately followed by the arrival
>> of Gandalf and reinforcements, by any chance, would it?
>>
>> I mean, the horn-blasts couldn't be behaving that way because /other/
>> horns were being blown in answer to them?
>
>That was how I remembered it, but I think I was wrong: seven further
>paragraphs follow before Erkanbrand and Gandalf pop up, and it seems
>fairly clear that *their* horns are separate:
>
>"There suddenly upon a ridge appearead a rider, clad in white, shining
>in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind
>him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot..."
>(TTT, Helm's Deep)

Seven paragraphs is a gap. I'll be rereading the book in a bit (I am
currently reading /HOTH2/), but my mind will probably continue to
confuse the two.
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

In message <news:2564956.lp0zkDOnBc@cedar.serverforest.com>
Derek Broughton <news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca> spoke these staves:
>
> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> There's nothing there that contradicts Jackson's interpretation,
>> but I'm certain that "the great horn of Helm" is intended to be
>> something slightly larger than the Horn of Gondor which one man
>> can carry, rather than an absurd mega-horn built into the fabric
>> of a fortress.

I agree.

I have always (ever since first reading the appendices) been certain
that this 'great horn of Helm' is identical to the one that Helm blew
before sallying forth during the siege of the Burg in the Long Winter
(TA 2758-59):

Helm had a great horn, and soon it was marked that before
he sallied forth he would blow a blast upon it that echoed
in the Deep; and then so great a fear fell on his enemies
that instead of gathering to take him or kill him they
fled away down the Coomb.
[LotR App. A,II 'The House of Eorl']

The wording 'Helm had a great horn' has led me to believe that the
horn in question is a larger-than-normal horn of the same type as
Boromir's horn, or the horn Merry received from Éomer and Éowyn, but
still one that Helm would carry around on his person.

> I certainly never imagined the horn to be like Jackson's idea
> before seeing the film, but I don't have a real problem with it.

I guess that depends on what one would mean by 'having a real problem
with it'

Personally I don't mind the portrayal in the films all that much --
yes, it is, when you think of it, absurd, but it is absurd in a way
that is consistent with e.g. the description of the sides of Orthanc.
It is absurd, but this kind of absurdity does fit quite well in
Jackson's version of Tolkien's fairy-tale universe.

It is still, IMO, not consistent with Tolkien's descriptions, but
whether that constitutes a 'real problem' is evidently debatable

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

When one admits that nothing is certain one must, I think,
also admit that some things are much more nearly certain
than others.
- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> wrote:

> Jamie (who started watching LotR yesterday, and got as far as the
> arrival of the elves at Helm's Deep before beating the walls in
> frustration: a new record!)

You mean you got past Aragorn falling off a cliff and making a
miraculous return from certain death? That's my personal wall-beating
moment. Truth to tell, I rather enjoyed the idea of a last-ditch
reconciliation between Elves and Men at Helm's Deep and thought it was
well handled.
--
Speaking Clock
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:37:17 -0000, "Speaking Clock"
<speaking.clock.DeleteThis@jeemale.com> wrote:

>Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong.DeleteThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Jamie (who started watching LotR yesterday, and got as far as the
>> arrival of the elves at Helm's Deep before beating the walls in
>> frustration: a new record!)
>
>You mean you got past Aragorn falling off a cliff and making a
>miraculous return from certain death? That's my personal wall-beating
>moment.

Actually, when I saw it the /first/ time, I was hoping Aragorn, the
slacker, would not return but would instead be replaced by some
non-slacker Ranger who actually /wanted/ to be King!
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Jamie Armstrong wrote:

> "There suddenly upon a ridge appearead a rider, clad in white, shining
> in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind
> him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot..."
> (TTT, Helm's Deep)

Wait, it wasn't Gandalf leading Eomer down steep mountainsides that
should have made their horses tumble onto their faces?!? I've been lied to!

--
David
Stardate 8235.8
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn?