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What books should I read next?

 
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k*

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Since: Jul 06, 2003
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 5:58 pm
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Graham Lockwood

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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:31 pm
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k* said:
{snip}
> Very interesting! Now I at least have some recommendation. I will let
> you know if the script recommended me the right thing after I have read
> all those books in that order Smile
>
> If you are interested, here is the order that I got for myself from the
> script:
> -------
> Recommended Reading Order for Books about Middle-earth
> Books in the "History of Middle-earth" series are labeled by series
> order: [HoMe N] is the Nth book in the series.
>
> 1. The Hobbit
> 2. The Lord of the Rings ("LotR") (often published in three volumes:
> The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and The Return of the King)
> 3. The Appendices and Prologue of The Lord of the Rings
> 4. Unfinished Tales
> 5. The Silmarillion

Sounds good to me except that I would read the Silmarillion before you read
Unfinished Tales. The Sil was compiled by Tolkien's son Christopher out of
his notes and into a relatively coherent storyline (even though Tolkien's
notes themselves contradicted each other in many MANY places). As such, the
Sil is a pretty good read just by itself. Reading IT first would A) spoil a
lot of things in the Sil and B) be very confusing at times because it
assumes you already know what happened in the Sil.

> 6. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (Often most easily found as part of
> The Tolkien Reader (USA) or Tales from the Perilous Realm
> (Commonwealth), which both also contain quite a few of Tolkien's
> writings not related to Middle-earth.)

In case you don't already knot, this is a book of poetry, most of it rather
whimsical like the Hobbits' poetry in LotR but some of it is different.

> 7. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (ed. Humphrey Carpenter)

As implied by the title, this is a compilation of some of Tolkien's letters.
I haven't read it myself but people here occasionally quote usefull tidbits
of information from it...

{snip}
> 15. "On Fairy Stories", published in Tree and Leaf (Often most easily
> found as part of The Tolkien Reader (USA), which also contains "The
> Adventures of Tom Bombadil", or The Monsters and the Critics and Other
> Essays (Commonwealth), both of which also contain a number of Tolkien's
> writings not related to Middle-earth.)

Not really "set in Middle-earth", but is an essay "on fairy stories"
(imagine that!).

{snip}

The "History of Middle Earth" (which consists of 12 volumes, all of which I
snipped) is Christopher Tolkien's further efforts to share his father's
unpublished work with the fans. It contains many many different variations
of various texts, old rough drafts of LotR, and all sorts of odds and ends.
Heavily commented on by Christopher, but the difference between the writings
of the two Tolkien's is made very clearly throughout.

> 19. "Osanwe-kenta: `Enquiry into the Communication of Thought'"
> (Published in the Tolkien linguistics journal Vinyar Tengwar #39 (July
> 1998), which is available for $2 at the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
> website)

Hmm, I haven't heard of this myself. I read the description on the website.
Does anyone have any comments on it?



||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||

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user1311

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:26 am
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Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis> wrote in message news:<BB2E45AA.94F7%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis>...

Of 'Osanwe-kenta' from VT 39;
> Hmm, I haven't heard of this myself. I read the description on the website.
> Does anyone have any comments on it?

There are actually a number of texts which were never published in
HoME (or indeed, never published at all) that have some very
interesting information on Tolkien's world but which don't relate to
the development of a particular story or aspect of the mythology
(which seems to have been Christopher's focus). The Osanwe-kenta
essay is a good example. It has alot of very interesting information
about the abilities and limitations of the Ainur. Specifically, it is
an essay on 'telepathy' in Middle-earth, but it ranges about quite a
bit.
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Bill O'Meally

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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:07 pm
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"Graham Lockwood" <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
wrote in message
news:BB2E45AA.94F7%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis...

> Sounds good to me except that I would read the Silmarillion before you
read
> Unfinished Tales. The Sil was compiled by Tolkien's son Christopher
out of
> his notes and into a relatively coherent storyline (even though
Tolkien's
> notes themselves contradicted each other in many MANY places). As
such, the
> Sil is a pretty good read just by itself. Reading IT first would A)
spoil a
> lot of things in the Sil and B) be very confusing at times because it
> assumes you already know what happened in the Sil.

Personally, I like to read the latter portions of UT right after I read
LotR because the stories/essays are much more pertinent to the Third
Age. I enjoy reading about the Rohirrim, the palantiri, the Istari, etc
while they're still fresh in my mind. Just as you stated, UT doesn't
need to be read cover to cover and I have no problem picking up the book
in the middle.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
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sbjensen

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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:54 pm
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Quoth Graham Lockwood
<GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis> in article
<BB2E45AA.94F7%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDotOrg@IgnoreThis.AndThis>:
> k* said:
> > I will let you know if the script recommended me the right thing
> > after I have read all those books in that order Smile

> > If you are interested, here is the order that I got for myself from the
> > script:

> > 4. Unfinished Tales
> > 5. The Silmarillion

> Sounds good to me except that I would read the Silmarillion before
> you read Unfinished Tales. [snip] ...the Sil is a pretty good read
> just by itself. Reading IT [sic] first would A) spoil a lot of
> things in the Sil and B) be very confusing at times because it
> assumes you already know what happened in the Sil.

As I think I mentioned in my previous reply, the more detailed mode of
the script does recommend skipping the First Age stories in UT if you
haven't read _The Silmarillion_ yet. And as for spoilers, I think the
majority of the "spoilable" stories in Silm. are already spoiled by
_The Hobbit_ and LotR (where did Glamdring come from? What did Beren
and Luthien do?)

As you might guess, configuring the script to often suggest UT before
Silm. was a difficult choice for me to make. The reason that I made
that choice is essentially as follows. Almost anyone who enjoys LotR
(and in particular, almost anyone who enjoys parts of the Appendices)
will find things in UT that they will also enjoy. The Third Age
stories in UT doesn't really depend on _The Silmarillion_ at all, and
many of the Second Age and "all Age" stories can be read easily
without Silm. as background.

On the other hand, _The Silmarillion_ reads a lot like a history book
or even like the Bible, especially near the beginning. I have had a
fair number of friends start Silm., get frustrated with it and give up
before it gets more "storylike", and never try any other Tolkien book.
Therefore, the script won't recommend Silm. before UT unless the user
says that they really like reading histories.

That's my reasoning, anyway. Smile Others certainly disagree at times.
But I think the flexibility of the booklist avoids any _real_
disasters. Smile

> > 6. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

> In case you don't already knot, this is a book of poetry, most of it
> rather whimsical like the Hobbits' poetry in LotR but some of it is
> different.

The book's description in the booklist does indicate that. And, for
the record, I don't think that the program would have recommended ATB
this highly without being told that the user enjoyed Tolkien's poetry
(of one sort or another, but probably "light poetry" in particular).

> > 15. "On Fairy Stories"

> Not really "set in Middle-earth", but is an essay "on fairy stories"

Or, as I say in the booklist:

'Technically, this essay has absolutely nothing to do with
Middle-earth at all. However, in one section of it Tolkien makes
numerous reference to "elves" and the Art that they create: for
example, "To the elvish craft, Enchantment, Fantasy aspires." In
the essay, he does not treat the elves as "real", but nevertheless
it seems that his comments on elves here do apply to the elves of
Middle-earth.'

That's how I justify putting it into a list of Tolkien's Middle-earth
writings, anyway. Smile

> > 19. "Osanwe-kenta: `Enquiry into the Communication of Thought'"
> > (Published in the Tolkien linguistics journal Vinyar Tengwar #39

> Hmm, I haven't heard of this myself. I read the description on the
> website. Does anyone have any comments on it?

Well, sure. Smile It is a truly remarkable essay (associated with
"Quendi and Eldar" in The War of the Jewels), discussing the
"telepathy" possessed by all "incarnates" in Middle-earth, ways in
which the Ainur could become "bound" to their physical forms, and the
moral decisions of Manwe regarding Melkor.

But that's what I already said in the booklist. Smile It's an incredible
read, and I honestly have no idea why Christopher Tolkien didn't find
some place to include it in HoMe as published. It just contains so
many amazingly cool tidbits about the way that Middle-earth works that
it's absolutely worth the $2 price.

Steuard Jensen
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user1335

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:21 pm
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Graham Lockwood wrote:
> k* said:
> {snip}
> > Very interesting! Now I at least have some recommendation. I will let
> > you know if the script recommended me the right thing after I have read
> > all those books in that order Smile
[...]
> > 19. "Osanwe-kenta: `Enquiry into the Communication of Thought'"
> > (Published in the Tolkien linguistics journal Vinyar Tengwar #39 (July
> > 1998), which is available for $2 at the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
> > website)
>
> Hmm, I haven't heard of this myself. I read the description on the website.
> Does anyone have any comments on it?

"Excellent" -- Imladris Chronicle. "A must for all serious Tolkien fans."
-- Tirith Times. "Thought-provocative and insightful, though it is a pity
it hadn't been published earlier." -- Valinor Monthly (Literary Review
Supplement).

Archie

--
"I have told my sons that they are not under any
circumstances to take part in massacres, and that
the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them
with satisfaction or glee."

Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_
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bobkolker

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:21 pm
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put-the-no-mail-out-archimedes99 RemoveThis @mail.ru wrote:
>
> "Excellent" -- Imladris Chronicle. "A must for all serious Tolkien fans."
> -- Tirith Times. "Thought-provocative and insightful, though it is a pity
> it hadn't been published earlier." -- Valinor Monthly (Literary Review
> Supplement).

It just occured to me that they did not have printing presses in Middle
Earth in either the 3rd or 4th age. Everything was scribed by quill or
somesuch.

Bob Kolker
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Graham Lockwood

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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:21 pm
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Robert J. Kolker said:
{snip}
> It just occured to me that they did not have printing presses in Middle
> Earth in either the 3rd or 4th age. Everything was scribed by quill or
> somesuch.

Sure they did, they were called "Hobbits". You didn't think that Bilbo was
*really* writing his own stuff in Imladris, did you?




||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
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Graham Lockwood

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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:31 pm
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Steuard Jensen said:
> Quoth Graham Lockwood
{snip}
>>> 19. "Osanwe-kenta: `Enquiry into the Communication of Thought'"
{snip}
>>Does anyone have any comments on it?
>
> Well, sure. Smile It is a truly remarkable essay (associated with
> "Quendi and Eldar" in The War of the Jewels), discussing the
> "telepathy" possessed by all "incarnates" in Middle-earth, ways in
> which the Ainur could become "bound" to their physical forms, and the
> moral decisions of Manwe regarding Melkor.
>
> But that's what I already said in the booklist. Smile

No, duh! Thanks for nuttin'! Razz

>It's an incredible
> read, and I honestly have no idea why Christopher Tolkien didn't find
> some place to include it in HoMe as published. It just contains so
> many amazingly cool tidbits about the way that Middle-earth works that
> it's absolutely worth the $2 price.

OK, you people have convinced me. I've placed my order and expect to get it
some time this yén but I'm not getting my hopes up...




||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
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sbjensen

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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:11 pm
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Quoth stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com in article
<becmih$2425$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>:
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen.TakeThisOut@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> : I've actually written a little CGI script to help people with that
> : very question. You tell it the sorts of things you like to read,
> : and it suggests a reasonable order in which to read the books.

> Your phrase "Some of Tolkien's writings about Middle-earth are
> considered to be more "canonical" (trustworthy) than others."
> strikes me as odd. "Canonical" and "trustworthy" are not synonyms,
> and it is strange to imply that some of Tolkien's writings are
> untrustworthy. Untrustworthy is such a negative word in my mind.

They aren't synonyms, true, but among their definitions are some that
are reasonably similar. Smile I was very hesitant to just say
"canonical", because I feared that many people wouldn't quite know
what I meant. (Even among people on these groups, I've seen those who
thought that we meant "canonical" in the traditional biblical sense of
the word. Those folks were understandably disturbed that we seemed to
be elevating Tolkien's writings to divine status!) In fact, given
that my Book List is intended for a _very_ broad audience (including
people, even kids, reading Tolkien for the first time, and with no
concept of the canonicity issue), I wanted to make sure that my
meaning was clear. (But I certainly didn't want to spend much time at
all on definitions! Not that everyone agrees on such things anyway.
And for the record, if you tell the list to give comments on
canonicity, it will include an introductory section that describes
what I mean by the concept in considerable detail.)

So, as you point out, "trustworthy" isn't really the right word. But
it's also not the only word that I used: I specifically inserted it as
a "clarification" of the word "canonical". For those who know any
definition of "canonical", that clarification should make it clear
that I'm using the word in a general sense (rather than establishing a
new church). For those who have no clue what "canonical" means
(except that maybe it's related to large guns), "trustworthy" doesn't
fall _that_ far off the mark... it will give them at least _some_
concept of what I'm talking about.

To be honest, though, I don't see "trustworthy" as being _terribly_
wrong. In context, I think it's clear that Tolkien could in no sense
have been _lying_: it's his invented world, after all. What else
could it mean? Well, "trustworthy" can mean "reliable", and a very
vague definition of "canonical" in our case might be "a reliable guide
to Tolkien's developed vision of Middle-earth". (See my essay
"Tolkien's Parish" for a far longer discussion.) I guess I could have
said "reliable" instead of "trustworthy", but "unreliable" is also a
negative word; I think you'd still object. Maybe I could say
"finalized", but doesn't come close to suggesting the vague definition
above... I think it's even less clear than "trustworthy".

At any rate, what other way of clarifying the meaning of "canonical"
as we use it here would you suggest? (I wouldn't use anything longer
than two or three words, and one word would certainly be best.) Maybe
I could just make "canonical" a hyperlink to my essay. Smile

Steuard Jensen
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stephen2

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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:58 pm
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Steuard Jensen <sbjensen DeleteThis @midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
: Quoth stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com in article
: <becmih$2425$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>:
:> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen DeleteThis @midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
:> : I've actually written a little CGI script to help people with that
:> : very question. You tell it the sorts of things you like to read,
:> : and it suggests a reasonable order in which to read the books.

:> Your phrase "Some of Tolkien's writings about Middle-earth are
:> considered to be more "canonical" (trustworthy) than others."
:> strikes me as odd. "Canonical" and "trustworthy" are not synonyms,
:> and it is strange to imply that some of Tolkien's writings are
:> untrustworthy. Untrustworthy is such a negative word in my mind.

: They aren't synonyms, true, but among their definitions are some that
: are reasonably similar. Smile I was very hesitant to just say
: "canonical", because I feared that many people wouldn't quite know
: what I meant.

<snip>

: To be honest, though, I don't see "trustworthy" as being _terribly_
: wrong. In context, I think it's clear that Tolkien could in no sense
: have been _lying_: it's his invented world, after all. What else
: could it mean? Well, "trustworthy" can mean "reliable", and a very
: vague definition of "canonical" in our case might be "a reliable guide
: to Tolkien's developed vision of Middle-earth". (See my essay
: "Tolkien's Parish" for a far longer discussion.) I guess I could have
: said "reliable" instead of "trustworthy", but "unreliable" is also a
: negative word; I think you'd still object. Maybe I could say
: "finalized", but doesn't come close to suggesting the vague definition
: above... I think it's even less clear than "trustworthy".

: At any rate, what other way of clarifying the meaning of "canonical"
: as we use it here would you suggest? (I wouldn't use anything longer
: than two or three words, and one word would certainly be best.) Maybe
: I could just make "canonical" a hyperlink to my essay. Smile

: Steuard Jensen

I am not sure I really have a suggestion for you. Perhaps a footnote
to a longer definition would be best. But then again, I doubt most
people even notice. Part of the problem, as you mention, is that
"canonical" is not really well defined for Tolkien's Middle-Earth,
and any attempt at one or two word definition is going to be misleading.
I know you have made some effort elsewhere to define what you mean
by canonical, but for example "finalized" is also not really a good
definition. What was the "final" version of the origin of the Sun and
Moon? Many references in the published "Lord of the Rings" imply
the Sun and Moon were created long before the Elves and Men awoke,
and that seems to be Tolkien's final intent, but do you consider
"Myths Transformed" more canonical than the published Silmarillion?

Another part of the "problem" is that you and I have very different
ideas about the importance of "canonical". Personally I am
far more interested in the evolution of Tolkien's ideas than
in the "final" form they appeared. In some cases I find
the earlier versions more interesting, but usually it is
in no particular version I am most interested, but in the way
the different versions are related. So to me, implying that
any of the versions are somehow not trustworthy just seems
odd. But to each their own.

Stephen
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user1311

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:26 am
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sbjensen DeleteThis @midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:<uaBOa.103$Y4.37136@news.uchicago.edu>...

> At any rate, what other way of clarifying the meaning of "canonical"
> as we use it here would you suggest? (I wouldn't use anything longer
> than two or three words, and one word would certainly be best.)

Something like 'established', 'finalized', 'consistent'... maybe throw
in a 'most' to indicate that even these are subjective measures.
Still, different people use each of those terms (AND 'trustworthy') in
defining 'canon'... the difference in what we consider important is
part of the difference in what we consider 'canon'. Some prefer a
text be 'finalized' and others that it be 'trustworthy' (presumably in
comparison to other texts). Thus there is no way to 'clarify what we
mean by canon' in just a few words.
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sbjensen

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:02 pm
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Quoth conrad.dunkerson.RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in article
<1178b6d1.0307090326.1e32cdf2.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>:
> sbjensen.RemoveThis@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:

> > At any rate, what other way of clarifying the meaning of
> > "canonical" as we use it here would you suggest?

> Something like 'established', 'finalized', 'consistent'... maybe
> throw in a 'most' to indicate that even these are subjective
> measures. Still, different people use each of those terms (AND
> 'trustworthy') in defining 'canon'... the difference in what we
> consider important is part of the difference in what we consider
> 'canon'.

I'm currently leaning toward "established" as my new clarification
word, together with a link to my full canonicity essay (or possibly
just to the FAQ entry, which might also deserve to be updated). I'll
see what I come up with.

> Thus there is no way to 'clarify what we mean by canon' in just a
> few words.

There's clearly not a way to _completely_ clarify the meaning, of
course. My goal is more to make sure people don't think I mean
"accepted by the Catholic church" (or think that _I_ consider the
books as important as the church considers its canon, for that
matter! Smile ), and to give a vague sense of the word to anyone who
doesn't know the definition at all (most children, for example).

Steuard Jensen
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