 |
|
|
|
Next: Come celebrate Tasha Tudor's 88th B-day in VT!
|
| Author |
Message |
External
Since: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 320
|
(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:28 pm
Post subject: Which books did your parents ban?
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>childrens (more info?)
|
|
|
I started a thread a long time ago - more than a year? - about books your
parents criticized and/or were pretty unhappy about your reading in general.
Best response: Someone said his/her father yelled at the poster and ripped up a
paperback book issued by MAD Magazine the poster had been caught reading. They
didn't say whether the father considered that sort of reading to be morally
dangerous or whether he was a Professor Harold Bloom-type snob who thinks
reading should always be challenging in every sense and never superficial fun.
Anyway, I now wonder which books your parents actually kept or tried to keep
out of your hands completely. Leaving aside the obvious ones like Little Black
Sambo (maybe) which did you find out your parents tried to ban at home or at
school, and did you, as an adult, think they were justified, considering your
age at the time?
(Incidentally, while my mother may not have been completely comfortable with MY
reading Little Black Sambo in the Better Homes and Gardens Storybook at my
grandmother's house, I can only guess that she figured that since we were
living in a diverse community, so long as I read it on my own and she didn't
read it to me herself, there was no need to worry about my getting any wrong
messages. After all, nobody has names like that in real life, plus, despite the
n-word appearing in Tom Sawyer, we don't keep that out of the hands of
elementary school kids, we simply explain to them years in advance how evil
racism is, with all its trappings. Same with the book Ezekiel, maybe.)
Lenona. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 | |
External
Since: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 49
|
(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Lenona321" <lenona321 DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030719112833.14491.00000163@mb-m04.aol.com...
(snip)>
>
> Anyway, I now wonder which books your parents actually kept or tried to
keep
> out of your hands completely. Leaving aside the obvious ones like Little
Black
> Sambo (maybe) which did you find out your parents tried to ban at home or
at
> school, and did you, as an adult, think they were justified, considering
your
> age at the time?
>
I was very lucky that my parents - especially my mother - encouraged me to
read widely. They didn't absolutely BAN anything. My mother disapproved of
Noddy, but I read other Enid Blyton's and Nancy Drew etc. I wasn't bought
many comics, which meant that the only access I had to some such as Mad or
the more "adult" superhero ones was at friends' houses. My parents were
more worried about quality than content, but I read very good stuff
routinely without prompting, so they wisely let me loose on the trash when I
felt like it.
I am of the generation for whom Little Black Sambo was still considered
harmless; I loved it as a young child, and still have my little copy
somewhere, though I can certainly see why it is not considered politically
correct today...
Debbie<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 21
|
(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
In article <gUkSa.2824$46.1045834@news2.telusplanet.net>, D. Gascoyne wrote:
> I am of the generation for whom Little Black Sambo was still considered
> harmless; I loved it as a young child, and still have my little copy
> somewhere, though I can certainly see why it is not considered politically
> correct today...
There is a modern retelling of the story which keeps the good stuff
but removes the racism. The character is called Babaji (instead of
Sambo) and the illustrations show people from the Indian subcontinent
(rather than caricatures of Africans).
The Story of Little Babaji
by Authors: Helen Bannerman,Fred Marcellino
Released: 1996
ISBN: 0062050648
--
Kevin Karplus karplus.DeleteThis@soe.ucsc.edu http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 17
|
(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:56 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>From: "D. Gascoyne" chumleybee RemoveThis @netscape.net
>>
>> Anyway, I now wonder which books your parents actually kept or tried to
>keep
>> out of your hands completely.
My parents didn't forbid me to read anything. However, my mom did once tell me
that she didn't like the Curious George books because of George's habit of
going off with strangers at the drop of a (yellow) hat...
She didn't stop us from reading them, though.
Erin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 31
|
(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
karplus DeleteThis @bray.cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus) writes:
>In article <gUkSa.2824$46.1045834@news2.telusplanet.net>, D. Gascoyne wrote:
>> I am of the generation for whom Little Black Sambo was still considered
>> harmless; I loved it as a young child, and still have my little copy
>> somewhere, though I can certainly see why it is not considered politically
>> correct today...
>There is a modern retelling of the story which keeps the good stuff
>but removes the racism. The character is called Babaji (instead of
>Sambo) and the illustrations show people from the Indian subcontinent
>(rather than caricatures of Africans).
> The Story of Little Babaji
> by Authors: Helen Bannerman,Fred Marcellino
> Released: 1996
> ISBN: 0062050648
Though there's been an interesting point made that that version's just as
reductive, only about Indians.
Julius Lester also did a nice retelling called _Sam and the Tigers_, with
illustrations by Jerry Pinkney. Funnily enough, it came out the same year
as the Marcellino version.
Deborah Stevenson
(stevenso@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 57
|
(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:15 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
<Deborah Stevenson> writes:
> Though there's been an interesting point made that that version's just as
> reductive, only about Indians.
Actually, "Little Black Sambo" originally WAS about an East Indian child.
That's why the animals in the story are tigers (which are not found in
Africa, AFIAK) rather than lions.
Anybody who's read Kipling knows that the English in India referred to the
natives as "black" and "niggers"; when the story got to the U.S., Sambo got
changed in some versions to an African child.
The version *I* read as child had belonged to my grandmother (IOW, was
turb-of-the-last-century), and had lovely illustrations which clearly showed
an East Indian child in the sort of bright clothing worn by Hindu children.
And I've never found the story particularly "reductive"- lots of
children's stories have silly adults and clever children who save the day.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 11
|
(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>or whether he was a Professor Harold Bloom-type snob who thinks
>reading should always be challenging in every sense and never superficial
>fun.
Having high standards does not equate to being a "snob."
My parents didn't ban any books, although they though Nancy Drew was junk. They
did almost completely ban tv-watching, though.
Janet
//Dear Artemesia! Poetry's a snare:
//Bedlam has many Mansions: have a care:
//Your Muse diverts you, makes the Reader sad:
//You think your self inspir'd; He thinks you mad.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 46
|
(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
boxhill.DeleteThis@aol.com (BoxHill) writes:
> My parents didn't ban any books, although they though Nancy Drew was
> junk.
heh. my mother made sure i had her complete set, about the first 15-20
of the originals. (she owned them because in her day they weren't
"good enough" for children's librarians.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 20, 2003
Posts: 2
|
(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:11 am
Post subject: Julius Lester was Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
<Deborah Stevenson>; <stevenso.TakeThisOut@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:rKnSa.3089$o7.39661@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> karplus.TakeThisOut@bray.cse.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus) writes:
>
> >In article <gUkSa.2824$46.1045834@news2.telusplanet.net>, D. Gascoyne
wrote:
> >> I am of the generation for whom Little Black Sambo was still considered
> >> harmless; I loved it as a young child, and still have my little copy
> >> somewhere, though I can certainly see why it is not considered
politically
> >> correct today...
>
> >There is a modern retelling of the story which keeps the good stuff
> >but removes the racism. The character is called Babaji (instead of
> >Sambo) and the illustrations show people from the Indian subcontinent
> >(rather than caricatures of Africans).
>
> > The Story of Little Babaji
> > by Authors: Helen Bannerman,Fred Marcellino
> > Released: 1996
> > ISBN: 0062050648
>
>
> Though there's been an interesting point made that that version's just as
> reductive, only about Indians.
>
> Julius Lester also did a nice retelling called _Sam and the Tigers_, with
> illustrations by Jerry Pinkney. Funnily enough, it came out the same year
> as the Marcellino version.
>
> Deborah Stevenson
> (stevenso@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
We borrowed the Julius Lester book from the local library just last week.
What a hit it was with my boys (5 and 2), they loved the language -
especially the tigers prancing around in Sam's clothes ("Ain't I fine?").
Actually it was that book that brought me to this group as the Julius
Lester's dedication was to this newsgroup - did he used to post here?
lulu
nsw, australia<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 74
|
(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: Julius Lester was Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
In article <bfe4ea$dk884$1@ID-126516.news.uni-berlin.de>,
bemac <bemac7_takethisout_ RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>Actually it was that book that brought me to this group as the Julius
>Lester's dedication was to this newsgroup - did he used to post here?
Yes he did, though I haven't seen him around in some time. This group
used to have much more author participation.
--
"I like books... I mean some of them. I don't like the kind that gives
you the feeling they're trying to improve your mind. I like the kind that
tells you things you already almost know." -- _The Mummy Market_
Terry Pratchett strikes again: http:www.armory.com/~web/vol11.no5.html<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 31
|
(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: Julius Lester was Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"bemac" <bemac7_takethisout_ DeleteThis @hotmail.com> writes:
>Actually it was that book that brought me to this group as the Julius
>Lester's dedication was to this newsgroup - did he used to post here?
Up till about 1996. He's still on Childlit, I believe; I think a lot of
people migrated there after spam came into existence.
Deborah Stevenson
(stevenso@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 31
|
(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Sionnach" <rhyfelwr.DeleteThis@msn.com> writes:
><Deborah Stevenson> writes:
>> Though there's been an interesting point made that that version's just as
>> reductive, only about Indians.
> Actually, "Little Black Sambo" originally WAS about an East Indian child.
>That's why the animals in the story are tigers (which are not found in
>Africa, AFIAK) rather than lions.
Not really. "Sambo" was already an established term for an African in
Bannerman's day, and there's clear Swahili overtones in that and the
parental names, and her illustrations (which, as some decent scholarship
has demonstrated, owe quite a bit to some of Heinrich Hoffmann's work),
are clearly of African characters.
Ultimately, however, it's a fantasy story set in no specific location.
Bannerman was quite an intelligent woman, observant of her Indian
surroundings and pretty well-informed about the rest of the world. She
deliberately chose to
> Anybody who's read Kipling knows that the English in India referred to the
>natives as "black" and "niggers"; when the story got to the U.S., Sambo got
>changed in some versions to an African child.
The setting did became more explicitly African in some retellings, but the
original American publication and the most popular version for some time
featured the same Bannerman art as the British version, albeit more
crudely reproduced.
Here's the cover image:
<http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm>
> The version *I* read as child had belonged to my grandmother (IOW, was
>turb-of-the-last-century), and had lovely illustrations which clearly showed
>an East Indian child in the sort of bright clothing worn by Hindu children.
That would be timed about right--it was first published in 1899--but even
at its first publication it wasn't considered to be a depiction of an
Indian child, and I don't think that the picture I reference above, from
that edition, is demonstrably Indian rather than African, nor did
Bannerman claim them to be.
> And I've never found the story particularly "reductive"- lots of
>children's stories have silly adults and clever children who save the day.
I didn't state that the story was reductive; I was referring to commentary
about the ethnic portrayals in Marcellino's adaptation. It's a great
story; that's why it's lasted so well.
Deborah Stevenson
(stevenso@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 31
|
(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
I just found a rather nifty web array of Sambo covers, including several
of the American versions you refer to, at
<http://www.pancakeparlour.com/Highlights/Thefuture/Short_Stories/Bannerman/bannerman.html>
and
<http://www.pancakeparlour.com/Highlights/Thefuture/Short_Stories/LargeSambo/Anotherdozen/anotherdozen.html>
Deborah Stevenson
(stevenso@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jul 20, 2003
Posts: 2
|
(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Julius Lester was Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
thank you.
lulu
<Deborah Stevenson>; <stevenso RemoveThis @alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:K6zSa.3117$o7.40085@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> "bemac" <bemac7_takethisout_ RemoveThis @hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
> >Actually it was that book that brought me to this group as the Julius
> >Lester's dedication was to this newsgroup - did he used to post here?
>
> Up till about 1996. He's still on Childlit, I believe; I think a lot of
> people migrated there after spam came into existence.
>
> Deborah Stevenson
> (stevenso@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 320
|
(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: Which books did your parents ban? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>There is a modern retelling of the story which keeps the good stuff
>but removes the racism. The character is called Babaji (instead of
>Sambo) and the illustrations show people from the Indian subcontinent
>(rather than caricatures of Africans).
>
I plan to read that one to my new niece when she's old enough, then "Sam and
the Tigers," and then let her browse through "Better Homes and Gardens
Storybook" if she wishes. Luckily, the illustrations in that version of LBS are
nowhere near as unattractive, if at all, as the originals. The latter, plus the
names Sambo, Mumbo and Jumbo were after all the main causes for complaint,
originally. Good thing the main character is at least brave and clever.
Lenona.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Which books did your parents ban? |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Profile
Private Messages
Log in
