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Since: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 49
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:51 pm
Post subject: Question Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)
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Hello everybody,
Remember me? I'm translating "Heirs of Empire" for publication in France
(the two first volumes already came out in French).
There's a sentence by Jiltanith I wan't to make sure I understand
perfectly...
Page 38 of Baen Books' paperback edition (1999), middle of the page: Colin
is having trouble deciding to have Cohanna's intelligent dogs killed; he
says he is not looking forward to making that decision. Jiltanith tells him:
"Nor shouldst thou. Logic, as thou hast said time without number, my love,
may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence."
I understand it as follows: "It is normal that you aren't (there is no
reason why you SHOULD be looking forward to it). Reason, as you said so many
times before, might be nothing but one way of erring through condifence."
In other words, she is telling him that it is perfectly normal that his
feelings should go against his logic, and that too much logic shows that the
person is TOO self-confident.
Is all this right?
Thank you so much in advance!
Lucas >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 67
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <43c26a86$1_2@news.bluewin.ch>,
Lucas Moreno <lucas.moreno DeleteThis @bluewin.ch> wrote:
>Hello everybody,
>
>Remember me? I'm translating "Heirs of Empire" for publication in France
>(the two first volumes already came out in French).
>
>There's a sentence by Jiltanith I wan't to make sure I understand
>perfectly...
>
>Page 38 of Baen Books' paperback edition (1999), middle of the page: Colin
>is having trouble deciding to have Cohanna's intelligent dogs killed; he
>says he is not looking forward to making that decision. Jiltanith tells him:
>"Nor shouldst thou. Logic, as thou hast said time without number, my love,
>may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence."
>
>I understand it as follows: "It is normal that you aren't (there is no
>reason why you SHOULD be looking forward to it). Reason, as you said so many
>times before, might be nothing but one way of erring through condifence."
"erring ->with<- confidence", I would say.
>In other words, she is telling him that it is perfectly normal that his
>feelings should go against his logic, and that too much logic shows that the
>person is TOO self-confident.
I would say that she is reminding him that, as he himself has said
many times, is not guaranteed to lead you to a ->correct<- answer. She
is not dismissing logic nor is she saying anything about "too much
logic", she is reminding him of the limits of logic.
>Is all this right?
>
>Thank you so much in advance!
Also note that the use of "shouldst", "thou" and "hast." These are
archaic forms of the verb, and correspond to the familiar in romance
languages such as french (the English "you" used to be the formal, and
"thou" the familiar; the latter was lost). Since French should have
archaic and/or familiar forms, you might want to use them to render
her speech.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin DeleteThis @math.berkeley.edu >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 1477
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Lucas Moreno" <lucas.moreno.DeleteThis@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:43c26a86$1_2@news.bluewin.ch...
> Hello everybody,
>
> Remember me? I'm translating "Heirs of Empire" for publication in France
> (the two first volumes already came out in French).
>
> There's a sentence by Jiltanith I wan't to make sure I understand
> perfectly...
>
> Page 38 of Baen Books' paperback edition (1999), middle of the page: Colin
> is having trouble deciding to have Cohanna's intelligent dogs killed; he
> says he is not looking forward to making that decision. Jiltanith tells
> him: "Nor shouldst thou. Logic, as thou hast said time without number, my
> love, may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence."
>
> I understand it as follows: "It is normal that you aren't (there is no
> reason why you SHOULD be looking forward to it). Reason, as you said so
> many times before, might be nothing but one way of erring through
> condifence."
>
> In other words, she is telling him that it is perfectly normal that his
> feelings should go against his logic, and that too much logic shows that
> the person is TOO self-confident.
>
> Is all this right?
>
> Thank you so much in advance!
>
> Lucas
>
Near enough. >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 392
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: "Lucas Moreno" <lucas.moreno RemoveThis @bluewin.ch> writes on Mon, 9
Jan 2006 14:51:59 +0100 in alt.books.david-weber :
>Hello everybody,
>
>Remember me? I'm translating "Heirs of Empire" for publication in France
>(the two first volumes already came out in French).
>
>There's a sentence by Jiltanith I wan't to make sure I understand
>perfectly...
>
>Page 38 of Baen Books' paperback edition (1999), middle of the page: Colin
>is having trouble deciding to have Cohanna's intelligent dogs killed; he
>says he is not looking forward to making that decision. Jiltanith tells him:
>"Nor shouldst thou. Logic, as thou hast said time without number, my love,
>may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence."
>
>I understand it as follows: "It is normal that you aren't (there is no
>reason why you SHOULD be looking forward to it). Reason, as you said so many
>times before, might be nothing but one way of erring through condifence."
>
>In other words, she is telling him that it is perfectly normal that his
>feelings should go against his logic, and that too much logic shows that the
>person is TOO self-confident.
>
>Is all this right?
In conversations, people tend to start talking where the other left off
"I am not looking forward to that decision "says he and she continues "Nor
should you."
What she is also saying, (as is he) is that Logic is a means to make a
wrong decision, sure in that what you are doing is right, proper and makes
sense. Sometimes, the "logical" answer turns out to have been the wrong
one.
But on the whole, your paraphrase is good enough.
>
>Thank you so much in advance!
>
>Lucas
>
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 49
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Well, thank you to all for those very useful answers!
Nevertheless, let me ask two last questions in order to be sure I got the
whole picture.
1. Does "nor shouldst thou" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "nor should you"?
I know it sounds obvious, but the dictionary gives the following definition
of "shouldst": "a second person singular past tense of shall". And here, I
think we all agree that it is a conditional and BY NO MEANS a past tense,
right? So it means "nor should you", right?
2. Does "... may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence" mean exactly the
same as "... may be nothing but a way of erring on the side of being too
confident"?
Thank you!
Lucas
"Lucas Moreno" <lucas.moreno.DeleteThis@bluewin.ch> a écrit dans le message de news:
43c26a86$1_2@news.bluewin.ch...
> Hello everybody,
>
> Remember me? I'm translating "Heirs of Empire" for publication in France
> (the two first volumes already came out in French).
>
> There's a sentence by Jiltanith I wan't to make sure I understand
> perfectly...
>
> Page 38 of Baen Books' paperback edition (1999), middle of the page: Colin
> is having trouble deciding to have Cohanna's intelligent dogs killed; he
> says he is not looking forward to making that decision. Jiltanith tells
> him: "Nor shouldst thou. Logic, as thou hast said time without number, my
> love, may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence."
>
> I understand it as follows: "It is normal that you aren't (there is no
> reason why you SHOULD be looking forward to it). Reason, as you said so
> many times before, might be nothing but one way of erring through
> condifence."
>
> In other words, she is telling him that it is perfectly normal that his
> feelings should go against his logic, and that too much logic shows that
> the person is TOO self-confident.
>
> Is all this right?
>
> Thank you so much in advance!
>
> Lucas
> >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Aug 04, 2004 Posts: 67
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <43c3db3f$1_3@news.bluewin.ch>,
Lucas Moreno <lucas.moreno.DeleteThis@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>Well, thank you to all for those very useful answers!
>
>Nevertheless, let me ask two last questions in order to be sure I got the
>whole picture.
>
>1. Does "nor shouldst thou" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "nor should you"?
Yes; it's just the archaic second person familiar.
>I know it sounds obvious, but the dictionary gives the following definition
>of "shouldst": "a second person singular past tense of shall". And here, I
>think we all agree that it is a conditional and BY NO MEANS a past tense,
>right? So it means "nor should you", right?
Yes.
>2. Does "... may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence" mean exactly the
>same as "... may be nothing but a way of erring on the side of being too
>confident"?
No. Why did you insert "on the side of being too"?
It means: "may be nothing but a way of erring with confidence." That's all.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin.DeleteThis@math.berkeley.edu >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 392
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: "Lucas Moreno" <lucas.moreno.TakeThisOut@bluewin.ch> writes on Tue, 10
Jan 2006 17:05:14 +0100 in alt.books.david-weber :
>Well, thank you to all for those very useful answers!
>
>Nevertheless, let me ask two last questions in order to be sure I got the
>whole picture.
>
>1. Does "nor shouldst thou" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "nor should you"?
Yes. Jiltanith uses 16th Century English, (often called Elizabethan),
which still had the 2nd person familiar form in use (In German, the "du"
form, I'm not sure what is in French). She is speaking to a close member
of her family (her husband) so she uses the "family form"
>I know it sounds obvious, but the dictionary gives the following definition
>of "shouldst": "a second person singular past tense of shall". And here, I
>think we all agree that it is a conditional and BY NO MEANS a past tense,
>right? So it means "nor should you", right?
Yes. As translated into Modern English.
1st person singular: I should,
2nd Person familiar: Thou Shouldst (obsolete)
2nd person formal: You [Singular] should
3rd person Singular: he/She/it should
3rd person plural: They should
1st person plural: We should
2nd person plural (familiar or formal): You should
>2. Does "... may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence" mean exactly the
>same as "... may be nothing but a way of erring on the side of being too
>confident"?
The context is that with logic, one may boldly go wrong, sure in that
what you are doing is correct. We all know of the clever man, who hearing
his wife complain about the vacuuming, reasons that she wants a new vacuum
cleaner, and for her birthday, gives her one, sure that he has logically
concluded that such is what would please her. And then wonders why he is
sleeping on the couch.
"may be nothing but a means of erring with confidence" would be a more
concise translation.
I don't envy you this task, first you have to translate archaic English
into contemporary English, before you can translate it into French.
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: May 23, 2005 Posts: 237
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:52 am
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:05:14 +0100, "Lucas Moreno"
<lucas.moreno RemoveThis @bluewin.ch> wrote:
>Well, thank you to all for those very useful answers!
>
>Nevertheless, let me ask two last questions in order to be sure I got the
>whole picture.
>
>1. Does "nor shouldst thou" mean EXACTLY the same thing as "nor should you"?
>
>I know it sounds obvious, but the dictionary gives the following definition
>of "shouldst": "a second person singular past tense of shall". And here, I
>think we all agree that it is a conditional and BY NO MEANS a past tense,
>right? So it means "nor should you", right?
>
>2. Does "... may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence" mean exactly the
>same as "... may be nothing but a way of erring on the side of being too
>confident"?
>
>Thank you!
>
>Lucas
regarding number two.
those two lines mean rather different things.
"may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence"
speaks to the chance of making a decision with full faith and
confidence that you are making the best decision you can then finding
out later that it was the wrong decision.
"may be nothing but a way of erring on the side of being too
confident"
this line has a much different meaning. it speaks specifically about
the type of error a person could make. >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 49
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Arturo Magidin writes:
> No. Why did you insert "on the side of being too"?
> It means: "may be nothing but a way of erring with confidence." That's
> all.
Well, Arturo, the thing is "to err with" doesn't match any English
expression I have in my dictionaries, who only give the following ones: "to
err through" and "to err on the side of". Hence my way of rephrasing the
sentence.
Anyway, now I got the general meaning, so it's fine.
Once again: thanks to all for your help!!
Lucas >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 49
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:50 am
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Jay Maynard wrote:
> Ah. It shouldn't be parsed as "(to err with) confidence"; it should be
> parsed as "(to err) (with confidence)".
Great! Now it is totally clear!
I always used to tell my French students that grammar isn't just an annoying
subject but really a powerful tool for writing and understanding languages.
Lucas >> Stay informed about: Question |
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Since: Jul 16, 2003 Posts: 66
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <dt8pbd130to.RemoveThis@enews2.newsguy.com>, cram.RemoveThis@got.net says...
> Jay Maynard wrote:
> > On 2006-01-09, Lucas Moreno <lucas.moreno.RemoveThis@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> >
> >>"Nor shouldst thou. Logic, as thou hast said time without number, my love,
> >>may be naught but a way to err wi' confidence."
> >>
> >>I understand it as follows: "It is normal that you aren't (there is no
> >>reason why you SHOULD be looking forward to it). Reason, as you said so many
> >>times before, might be nothing but one way of erring through condifence."
> >
> >
> > More like "Logic is just a way of screwing up with confidence."
> >
> >
> >>In other words, she is telling him that it is perfectly normal that his
> >>feelings should go against his logic, and that too much logic shows that the
> >>person is TOO self-confident.
> >
> >
> > More like logic allowing one to screw up royally, while being confident that
> > one is doing the right thing. That confidence is misplaced. It doesn't say
> > anything about logic showing that someone is confident, as such; it's more
> > about logic allowing someone to make the wrong decision, when following
> > one's feelings would lead to a better outcome.
>
> Hence the term "screwing up by the numbers." (Screwing not necessarily
> being the term used.) You make all the logical decisions, and the
> outcome is BAD.
Sounds like just bad luck to me. I always thought "screwing up by the
numbers" had the connotation of having done absolutely everything wrong
that one could do wrong. >> Stay informed about: Question |
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