How evil is a classical empire?

On 17 nov, 20:54, Damien Valentine <valen....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure what we're talking about here. Are you making the claim
> that Asimov's Galactic Empire was _always_ as corrupt as it was during
> its waning years? If so, you'll have to show that:
>
> A. Whatever happened between Pliny and Trajan (whom you inexplicably
> refer to in the Classical Latin) was in fact corrupt (if "evil" means
> something other than "corrupt", you'll need to explain this too).

I think "oppressive" is closer to what I mean.

> B. There is some point in Asimov's text that corresponds to whatever
> happened between Pliny and Trajan.

We do not see the provincial administarion of the Empire under its
best (Eto Demerzel/R. Daneel Oliwaw). But there are things like, e. g.
references to reliable histories before the Empire being hard to find
because the Empire had a policy of suppressing them. An oppressive
policy which the Roman Empire never had...
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 17, 5:36 am, Crown-Horned Snorkack <chornedsnork....DeleteThis@hush.ai>
wrote:
> The classical SF often features a Galactic Empire or something
> similar. Often based on Roman Empire. Like Asimov´s Foundation Series.
>
> The Empire of Foundation is perceived as a good thing by Hardin, and
> Gaal Dornick. It is decaying, inevitably, but it is better than the
> Four Kingdoms and the disintegration of Periphery. Things look worse
> by the time Hober Mallow and Lathan Devers see the Empire. But it is
> emphasized that the Galactic Empire before decay was yet much better
> than what Seldon saw.
>
> Now, let us compare what we see of the historic Roman Empire at its
> best. Governor Plinius of Bithynia and his correspondence with
> Traianus... Traianus was quite often regarded as the best Roman
> emperor, ever. And Plinius was one of the few most conscientious and
> well-meaning governors - like Cicero was in his time.
>
> Greece was the favourite province of Roman Empire. Especially for Nero
> and Hadrianus, but generally much of the time.
>
> How would a early 21st century Earth, or middle 20th century Earth,
> take it if one day a fleet showed up outside atmosphere, and next they
> know they have a provincial government of a Galactic Empire to deal
> with? Governing in the spirit of Plinius and Traianus?
>
> (Remember the pearls like Traianus explaining the ban on volunteer
> fire squads).



First off you need to be clear about what you mean by "evil".

The good thing about an empire is that the chicken#hit low level local
robber baron violence is kept to a minimum, which makes trade much
more practical.

This is also call consistent rule of law, it is very important to a
stable economy.

The bad thing about an empire is that when the rule is a bad one the
empire is very powerful and hard to stop.

On the whole most of the time living in an empire is better than
living outside of it, witness the general trend of migration of people
was into rather than out of empires.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 18, 3:46 pm, Howard Brazee <how....RemoveThis@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:29:42 -0800 (PST), Alfred Montestruc
>
> <montest....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >First off you need to be clear about what you mean by "evil".
>
> But lots of people don't feel that need.

They can take their feelings and shove them up their collective asses
then.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:29:42 -0800 (PST), Alfred Montestruc
<montestruc.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>First off you need to be clear about what you mean by "evil".

But lots of people don't feel that need. It's irritating when
authors do this, sometimes the prince is overthrowing the current
ruler without giving any evidence that this war will help the people.

Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx universe has some evil coming towards
the galaxy. Flinx knows it is evil, but that's basically all he
knows. I'd rather have it be hungry or something that is more real
than a vague "evil".
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

"Crown-Horned Snorkack" <chornedsnorkack.DeleteThis@hush.ai> wrote in message
news:b91e9c5f-5fd2-4ad8-b76c-68e9d102b23c@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
< ...
< How would a early 21st century Earth, or middle 20th century Earth,
< take it if one day a fleet showed up outside atmosphere, and next they
< know they have a provincial government of a Galactic Empire to deal
< with? Governing in the spirit of Plinius and Traianus?
<

It all depends. What to they bring us?
Technology, missionaries, unification, knowledge, culture shock?

What are the dues?
Resources, people, biologicals, crystals, worship, room for settlers?

If it happens fast, as you imply, there'll be a job rush to work for
the new masters. And we'll be dealing with that type of human.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
as <chornedsnorkack RemoveThis @hush.ai> declared:

> On 17 nov, 20:54, Damien Valentine <valen... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure what we're talking about here. Are you making the claim
>> that Asimov's Galactic Empire was _always_ as corrupt as it was during
>> its waning years? If so, you'll have to show that:
>>
>> A. Whatever happened between Pliny and Trajan (whom you inexplicably
>> refer to in the Classical Latin) was in fact corrupt (if "evil" means
>> something other than "corrupt", you'll need to explain this too).
>
> I think "oppressive" is closer to what I mean.
>
>> B. There is some point in Asimov's text that corresponds to whatever
>> happened between Pliny and Trajan.
>
> We do not see the provincial administarion of the Empire under its
> best (Eto Demerzel/R. Daneel Oliwaw). But there are things like, e. g.
> references to reliable histories before the Empire being hard to find
> because the Empire had a policy of suppressing them. An oppressive
> policy which the Roman Empire never had...

See also the "First Emperor" of China (who wasn't, for all we know).


-- Charlie
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On 19 nov, 07:09, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l....RemoveThis@sff.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:07:02 GMT, Charlie Stross
>
> <char....RemoveThis@antipope.org> wrote:
> >Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> >as <chornedsnork....RemoveThis@hush.ai> declared:
>
> >> We do not see the provincial administration of the Empire under > >> its best (Eto Demerzel/R. Daneel Oliwaw). But there are things > >> like, e. g. references to reliable histories before the Empire being > >> hard to find because the Empire had a policy of suppressing
> >> them. An oppressive policy which the Roman Empire never
> >> had...
>
> >See also the "First Emperor" of China (who wasn't, for all we
> >know).
>
> Actually, we know he wasn't. Qin Huangdi was preceded by the
> Zhou Dynasty, a fact he tried to suppress and managed to get
> reduced to a legend,

The folks who called it a legend were, at most, ignorant early 20th
century historians.

> but enough evidence has now been found to establish that the
> Zhou Dynasty did exist, and ruled enough of China to count as
> emperors.
>
> There was at least one even earlier dynasty, but I'm not sure their
> claims to empire have been substantiated, and besides, I forget what
> they were called. Shang, maybe?
>
Qin never denied the existence of Zhou.

Some historical overview:

Shang dynasty (till 12th century BC) used title "Wang". After seizing
power from them sometime in 12th or 11th century, Zhou dynasty also
used title "Wang". In 11th to 8th century, Zhou dynasty ruled a
substantial (but still modest) territory in North China, and had real
control over vassals, who were given titles like "gong" and "hou".

In 8th century, things like barbarian attack and civil war caused the
Zhou dynasty to lose effective control over vassals. The outcome was
that the vassals basically ruled independently - but paid lip service
to the Zhou ruler, whom alone they continued to call "wang", but who
kept only a small domain under his real rule.

Also in 8th century, a state of Chu arose south of the borders of the
old Zhou state. The ruler of Chu claimed to be an equal, not even a
theoretical subordinate of the Zhou ruler, so he used the title
"wang". In 6th century, states of Wu and Yue arose further to the
southeast, and they likewise used "wang".

In 4th century BC, the Chinese rulers finally gave up the pretence of
acknowledging Zhou superiority and between 334 and 299 BC took titles
of "wang". Qin was among them.

In 255 BC, Qin conquered the old Zhou capital.. But the other states
remained independent.

Between 230 and 221 BC, Qin conquered all the other states. And in 221
BC, Qin Shi Huangdi invented and took the new title of "Huangdi".

By using a new title "huangdi" rather than "wang", Qing Shi Huangdi
emphasized that his government was something new and unprecedented -
different from what Qin had been before unification of China,
different from what the other states had been before Qin conquest -
and also different from what Zhou had been long ago.

This latter was somewhat arguable, so that the later writers were
ambivalent about it. But the later rulers, Xiang Yu as well as Han and
later dynasties, felt that they were above "wang" and could hand out
the title of "wang" as if it were a noble title, rather than equal to
them.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:29:42 -0800 (PST), Alfred Montestruc
> <montestruc.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> First off you need to be clear about what you mean by "evil".
>
> But lots of people don't feel that need. It's irritating when
> authors do this, sometimes the prince is overthrowing the current
> ruler without giving any evidence that this war will help the people.
>
> Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx universe has some evil coming towards
> the galaxy. Flinx knows it is evil, but that's basically all he
> knows. I'd rather have it be hungry or something that is more real
> than a vague "evil".

ISTR recall that it is destroying all matter in its wake, on an
inter-galactic scale. Sounds pretty "evil" to me.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

Damien Valentine <valends3 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A. Whatever happened between Pliny and Trajan (whom you inexplicably
> refer to in the Classical Latin)

This is not completely inexplicable. The original Latin names are more
internationally recognisable than the Anglicised versions. I always get
confused when someone calls John and Paul apostles, for example.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

Crown-Horned Snorkack <chornedsnorkack.TakeThisOut@hush.ai> wrote in
news:7375940e-f61f-4980-883d-f9f91ec6efb8@s36g2000prg.googlegroups.
com:
>...
> Between 230 and 221 BC, Qin conquered all the other states. And
> in 221 BC, Qin Shi Huangdi invented and took the new title of
> "Huangdi".

Wasn't "huangdi" also what the legendary Yellow Emperor was called?
Or does that legend postdate the Qin dynasty?

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On 19 Nov, 20:31, bernardZ <Berna... RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <U410j.72783$Um6.5...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
> joel_ol... RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Crown-Horned Snorkack" <chornedsnork... RemoveThis @hush.ai> wrote in message
> >news:b91e9c5f-5fd2-4ad8-b76c-68e9d102b23c@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> > < ...
> > < How would a early 21st century Earth, or middle 20th century Earth,
> > < take it if one day a fleet showed up outside atmosphere, and next they
> > < know they have a provincial government of a Galactic Empire to deal
> > < with? Governing in the spirit of Plinius and Traianus?
> > <
>
> > It all depends. What to they bring us?
> > Technology, missionaries, unification, knowledge, culture shock?
>
> > What are the dues?
> > Resources, people, biologicals, crystals, worship, room for settlers?
>
> > If it happens fast, as you imply, there'll be a job rush to work for
> > the new masters. And we'll be dealing with that type of human.
>
> Also to a significant percentage of the worlds population today they may
> bring more freedom and peace then they have now eg China, much of the
> Middle East and large sections of Africa.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
So incorperation into a new galactic empire will bring more freedome
to people in China who live is what is a surprisingly free empire by
previous standards (oh yes it is you just go there) and not for
example unprecidented levels of slavery and oppression
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 18, 12:29 pm, Alfred Montestruc <montest....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 5:36 am, Crown-Horned Snorkack <chornedsnork....DeleteThis@hush.ai>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The classical SF often features a Galactic Empire or something
> > similar. Often based on Roman Empire. Like Asimov´s Foundation Series.
>
> > The Empire of Foundation is perceived as a good thing by Hardin, and
> > Gaal Dornick. It is decaying, inevitably, but it is better than the
> > Four Kingdoms and the disintegration of Periphery. Things look worse
> > by the time Hober Mallow and Lathan Devers see the Empire. But it is
> > emphasized that the Galactic Empire before decay was yet much better
> > than what Seldon saw.
>
> > Now, let us compare what we see of the historic Roman Empire at its
> > best. Governor Plinius of Bithynia and his correspondence with
> > Traianus... Traianus was quite often regarded as the best Roman
> > emperor, ever. And Plinius was one of the few most conscientious and
> > well-meaning governors - like Cicero was in his time.
>
> > Greece was the favourite province of Roman Empire. Especially for Nero
> > and Hadrianus, but generally much of the time.
>
> > How would a early 21st century Earth, or middle 20th century Earth,
> > take it if one day a fleet showed up outside atmosphere, and next they
> > know they have a provincial government of a Galactic Empire to deal
> > with? Governing in the spirit of Plinius and Traianus?
>
> > (Remember the pearls like Traianus explaining the ban on volunteer
> > fire squads).
>
> First off you need to be clear about what you mean by "evil".
>
> The good thing about an empire is that the chicken#hit low level local
> robber baron violence is kept to a minimum, which makes trade much
> more practical.
>
> This is also call consistent rule of law, it is very important to a
> stable economy.
>
> The bad thing about an empire is that when the rule is a bad one the
> empire is very powerful and hard to stop.
>
> On the whole most of the time living in an empire is better than
> living outside of it, witness the general trend of migration of people
> was into rather than out of empires.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Also, there are empires, empires, and then there are empires.

The Roman Empire and the British Empire, for example, are so different
that they're really two entirely separate categories, two different
_kinds_ of polity. Likewise Han China is not in any really useful
sense comparable to the Soviet empire, or the Holy Roman Empire to the
German Empire of Bismarck.

Some empires seem to fall into the category of 'stability states',
they exist over time in part simply to maintain a _status quo_, or at
least that's what they do in practice regardless of imperial theory.
The Roman Empire and the late Chinese post-Han empires might both be
considered such, speaking very loosely.

Others seem to be basically trade associations enforced at gun point.
From one POV, that might describe the second British Empire.

Still others are embodiments of a religious or political ideology (the
difference is not that great in this context), such as the USSR before
it calcified.

Using one word, 'empire' to describe all these different things clouds
more than it clarifies.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

In article <S9SdndxTBPthedzanZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d RemoveThis @comcast.com>,
"Brion K. Lienhart" <brionl RemoveThis @lienhart.name> said:

> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
>> Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx universe has some evil coming
>> towards the galaxy. Flinx knows it is evil, but that's basically
>> all he knows. I'd rather have it be hungry or something that is
>> more real than a vague "evil".
>
> ISTR recall that it is destroying all matter in its wake, on an
> inter-galactic scale. Sounds pretty "evil" to me.

Unless it's just the intergalactic medium's equivalent of a big
hurricane.

--
William December Starr <wdstarr RemoveThis @panix.com>
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire?