How evil is a classical empire?

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:15:50 +0200, Tapio Erola
<txr.RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain> wrote:

>True genocides and totalitarian oppression were only made possible by
>modern technologies, population densities, communications, etc. They're
>very much creatures of 20th+ century.
>
>Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies required
>for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the Emperor was a
>supreme autocrat, his reach was very much limited by distance,
>tradition and bureaucracy, which was also limited by distance and
>tradition.

How many people do you have to have the autocratic ability to kill or
oppress to qualify as "true"?

Certainly today's despots are similarly limited - so there must be a
threshold that divides True despots from False despots.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:21:08 -0800 (PST), bernardz <bernardz RemoveThis @mail.com>
wrote:

>On Nov 21, 5:59 am, David Johnston <da... RemoveThis @block.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:42:04 +1100,bernardZ<Berna... RemoveThis @nospam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> > - Show quoted text -
>> >> So incorperation into a new galactic empire will bring more freedome
>> >> to people in China who live is what is a surprisingly free empire by
>> >> previous standards (oh yes it is you just go there) and not for
>> >> example unprecidented levels of slavery and oppression
>>
>> >I have been to China and I can assure you you aint a democracy.
>>
>> He didn't say it was.
>
>He came pretty close to saying it.

No, he didn't. But he did suggest that China has historically been
grindingly oppressive throughout most of history so that the current
regime qualifies as a less oppressive dictatorship.

I can assure you its only a
>surprisingly free empire by Mao hell hole it certainly not freer then
>pre-Mao much less then by any other standard.

Yes, I can believe that. I have difficulty believing modern China is
freer than imperial china.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

In article <m3y7csx8l5.fsf.DeleteThis@localhost.localdomain.i-did-not-set--mail-
host-address--so-tickle-me>, txr.DeleteThis@localhost.localdomain says...
> Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies required
> for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the Emperor was a
> supreme autocrat, his reach was very much limited by distance,
> tradition and bureaucracy, which was also limited by distance and
> tradition.
>
> "The Mountains are High and the Emperor is Far Away", as the chinese
> proverb put it.
>


I would expect a Galactic Empire to be even further away.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:56:11 +1100, bernardZ <BernardZ.DeleteThis@nospam.com>
wrote:

>In article <m3y7csx8l5.fsf.DeleteThis@localhost.localdomain.i-did-not-set--mail-
>host-address--so-tickle-me>, txr.DeleteThis@localhost.localdomain says...
>> Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies required
>> for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the Emperor was a
>> supreme autocrat, his reach was very much limited by distance,
>> tradition and bureaucracy, which was also limited by distance and
>> tradition.
>>
>> "The Mountains are High and the Emperor is Far Away", as the chinese
>> proverb put it.
>>
>
>
>I would expect a Galactic Empire to be even further away.

Won't make a difference if they have Star Wars Style "We can be
anywhere in the galaxy in a couple of weeks or less". And of course
if the Empire can't closely administer its possessions, then it's not
unlikely that the latterday Herods of places like China would continue
unrestrained by anything except the need to pay their tribute and keep
their hands off Imperial citizens.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

"Joel Olson" <joel_olson.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:U410j.72783$Um6.5644@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
> "Crown-Horned Snorkack" <chornedsnorkack.DeleteThis@hush.ai> wrote in message
> news:b91e9c5f-5fd2-4ad8-b76c-68e9d102b23c@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> < ...
> < How would a early 21st century Earth, or middle 20th century Earth,
> < take it if one day a fleet showed up outside atmosphere, and next they
> < know they have a provincial government of a Galactic Empire to deal
> < with? Governing in the spirit of Plinius and Traianus?
> <
>
> It all depends. What to they bring us?
> Technology, missionaries, unification, knowledge, culture shock?
>
> What are the dues?
> Resources, people, biologicals, crystals, worship, room for settlers?
>
> If it happens fast, as you imply, there'll be a job rush to work for
> the new masters. And we'll be dealing with that type of human.
>

And TOURISTS !
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On 22 nov, 11:34, bernardZ <Berna....RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <av19k311jo5n73fqfbi3mgd3cchppvo....RemoveThis@4ax.com>, da....RemoveThis@block.net
> says...
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:56:11 +1100, bernardZ <Berna....RemoveThis@nospam.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >In article <m3y7csx8l5.....RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain.i-did-not-set--mail-
> > >host-address--so-tickle-me>, t....RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain says...
> > >> Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies
> > >> required for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the
> > >> Emperor was a supreme autocrat, his reach was very much
> > >> limited by distance, tradition and bureaucracy, which was also > > >> limited by distance and tradition.
>
Genghis Khan´s reach was not limited by tradition. Distance, slightly.
The Mongol generals in the field could not consult the Khan about the
fate of every individual town they took. But they had general orders
and instructions - which proved quite enough for large scale policy of
genocide.

> > >> "The Mountains are High and the Emperor is Far Away", as
> > >> the chinese proverb put it.
>
> > >I would expect a Galactic Empire to be even further away.
>
> > Won't make a difference if they have Star Wars Style "We can be
> > anywhere in the galaxy in a couple of weeks or less".
>
> If it is faster then light it is not physics but fiction.
>
In which case, any galactic empire is unphysical. Which is trivially
true. But possession of unphysical technologies does not
authomatically alter human social psychology.

> > And of course if the Empire can't closely administer its
> > possessions, then it's no unlikely that the latterday Herods of
> > places like China would continue unrestrained by anything except > > the need to pay their tribute and keep their hands off Imperial
> > citizens.
>
> Unless it is some sort of information, I cannot see any tribute in
> Galactic terms worth the transport costs.

Then why would a Galactic Empire exist in the first place?

If a Galactic Empire collects only information, what stake would they
have in promoting peace, let alone freedom?

You could very plausibly have aliens who actively promote war on
Earth. If travel across interstellar distances is prohibitively
expensive, then no one on Earth can hurt the Empire at home with any
dangerous amounts of weapons, even if those weapons are supplied by
the Empire itself. The Empire could turn the Earth into a testing
ground for weapons and warfare - if anyone looks like winning and
enforcing peace on Earth, they just supply the drawings for a next
superweapon to the losing side thus making sure no one ever wins, and
if the parties get exhausted by fighting and want to make peace, it is
the first party to break the peace who is promised the drawings of
another superweapon.

So... why would an empire want peace unless warfare hinders tax
collection?
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

> The Empire could turn the Earth into a testing ground for weapons and warfare -

Kind of like the Spanish Civil War was for the Fascists and the
Communists.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

In article <ohf9k39ckfnk8cr3loiaicigecn2822q99 RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
howard RemoveThis @brazee.net says...
> Certainly today's despots are similarly limited - so there must be a
> threshold that divides True despots from False despots.
>

It depends on time and place. In Brezhnev time millions of people were
in Russian jail and falsely sent to mental institutions. Yet compared to
Stalin, he was no despot. Although I am sure if Putin tried it today he
would be branded a despot.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

In article <av19k311jo5n73fqfbi3mgd3cchppvo2bl.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, david.RemoveThis@block.net
says...
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:56:11 +1100, bernardZ <BernardZ.RemoveThis@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <m3y7csx8l5.fsf.RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain.i-did-not-set--mail-
> >host-address--so-tickle-me>, txr.RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain says...
> >> Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies required
> >> for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the Emperor was a
> >> supreme autocrat, his reach was very much limited by distance,
> >> tradition and bureaucracy, which was also limited by distance and
> >> tradition.
> >>
> >> "The Mountains are High and the Emperor is Far Away", as the chinese
> >> proverb put it.
> >>
> >
> >
> >I would expect a Galactic Empire to be even further away.
>
> Won't make a difference if they have Star Wars Style "We can be
> anywhere in the galaxy in a couple of weeks or less".

If it is faster then light it is not physics but fiction.

> And of course
> if the Empire can't closely administer its possessions, then it's not
> unlikely that the latterday Herods of places like China would continue
> unrestrained by anything except the need to pay their tribute and keep
> their hands off Imperial citizens.
>

Unless it is some sort of information, I cannot see any tribute in
Galactic terms worth the transport costs.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

bernardZ wrote:

>
> Unless it is some sort of information, I cannot see any tribute in
> Galactic terms worth the transport costs.

Dilithium, obviously.




--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:34:29 +1100, bernardZ <BernardZ.RemoveThis@nospam.com>
wrote:

>In article <av19k311jo5n73fqfbi3mgd3cchppvo2bl.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, david.RemoveThis@block.net
>says...
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:56:11 +1100, bernardZ <BernardZ.RemoveThis@nospam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <m3y7csx8l5.fsf.RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain.i-did-not-set--mail-
>> >host-address--so-tickle-me>, txr.RemoveThis@localhost.localdomain says...
>> >> Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies required
>> >> for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the Emperor was a
>> >> supreme autocrat, his reach was very much limited by distance,
>> >> tradition and bureaucracy, which was also limited by distance and
>> >> tradition.
>> >>
>> >> "The Mountains are High and the Emperor is Far Away", as the chinese
>> >> proverb put it.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >I would expect a Galactic Empire to be even further away.
>>
>> Won't make a difference if they have Star Wars Style "We can be
>> anywhere in the galaxy in a couple of weeks or less".
>
>If it is faster then light it is not physics but fiction.

You might almost call it...SCIENCE FICTION!

Oh, incidentally the idea that anyone could run a viable interstellar
empire at slower than light speeds is absurd.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

David Johnston <david.TakeThisOut@block.net> wrote:
>bernardZ <BernardZ.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:
>>david@block.net says...
>>> Won't make a difference if they have Star Wars Style "We can be
>>> anywhere in the galaxy in a couple of weeks or less".
>>
>>If it is faster then light it is not physics but fiction.
>
>You might almost call it...SCIENCE FICTION!

INNNN! SPAAAACE!

>Oh, incidentally the idea that anyone could run a viable interstellar
>empire at slower than light speeds is absurd.

Eh. 1) Aliens who lived much slower than humans do, or humans slowed down
to ridiculously-slow speed; 2) if there were FTL _communication_ that might
stabilize things quite a lot; 3) depends how LARGE said empire is - maybe
it's in a globular cluster...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd.TakeThisOut@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On 22 nov, 11:32, bernardZ <Berna....DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <ohf9k39ckfnk8cr3loiaicigecn2822....DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
> how....DeleteThis@brazee.net says...
>
> > Certainly today's despots are similarly limited - so there must be a
> > threshold that divides True despots from False despots.
>
> It depends on time and place. In Brezhnev time millions of people were
> in Russian jail and falsely sent to mental institutions.

I believe that this estimate is misleading.

> Yet compared to
> Stalin, he was no despot.

The number of people in Gulag, in time of Stalin, would have been a
few millions. Sure, the total number of victims would have been
considerably higher - but a great majority of them did not last all
that long. Many died in a few years, and quite some were released even
in Stalin´s time (usually followed by exile/residence restrictions). I
think the number alive and in jail at any given time would not have
exceeded ten millions.

In time of Brežnev or Hruštšov, after most political prisoners had
been released? Considerably fewer. Note that Russia is a large
country, and many people would have been in Russian jail for common
crimes. I think that throughout Brežnev´s time, political prisoners
were far outnumbered by criminals.

Falsely sent to mental institutions? Well, mental patients would
generally have been somewhat fewer than jail inmates. And they would
also have been mostly genuinely insane. I think that the people
falsely sent to mental institutions might have been thousands, maybe
tens of thousands but not more.

> Although I am sure if Putin tried it today he
> would be branded a despot.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire?