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Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti?

 
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user472

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Since: May 25, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 16) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)

From The Ring World Engineers:

"If a pak protector has no living children he generally dies. He stops
eating. Some protectors can generalize; they can find a way to do
something for their whole species, and it keeps them alive."

I'm thinking specifically of the way Teela Brown trys to save the entire
ring world population even though none of them are part of her species.
Which is why I asked originally, I only have seen the one pak protector
and I'm trying to justify her behavior.

-Benjamin Klahn

Ernest Fairchild wrote:
 > "Benjamin Klahn" <code.mage RemoveThis @prodigy.net> wrote in message
 > news:_lzsc.209$n65.129@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
 >
  >>Do the Pak differentiate between different species? I was under the
  >>impression that they try and protect all sentient life.
 >
 >
 > LOL! No, the Pak protect only their *own* descendents. They don't
 > protect anyone else's descendents.
 >
 > Have a great day!
 >
 > Ernest
 > _____________________
 > "In the begining there was nothing, then God said, "Let there be
 > light"... and there was still nothing, but you could see it."
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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dvries

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Since: May 26, 2004
Posts: 3



(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:33 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 > Ernest Fairchild wrote:
  > > "Benjamin Klahn" <code.mage.DeleteThis@prodigy.net> wrote in message
  > > news:_lzsc.209$n65.129@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
  > >
   > >>Do the Pak differentiate between different species? I was under the
   > >>impression that they try and protect all sentient life.
  > >
  > >
  > > LOL! No, the Pak protect only their *own* descendents. They don't
  > > protect anyone else's descendents.

Very Happy
Quite the reverse, in fact: if anyone else's descendants get in the
way of your own, well...let's just say that Ernest's greeting is *not*
the last thing they hear.

  > > Have a great day!
  > >
  > > Ernest

Benjamin Klahn <code.mage.DeleteThis@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<K7Lsc.323$n65.134@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>...
 > From The Ring World Engineers:
 >
 > "If a pak protector has no living children he generally dies. He stops
 > eating. Some protectors can generalize; they can find a way to do
 > something for their whole species, and it keeps them alive."
 >
 > I'm thinking specifically of the way Teela Brown trys to save the entire
 > ring world population even though none of them are part of her species.
 > Which is why I asked originally, I only have seen the one pak protector
 > and I'm trying to justify her behavior.
 >
 > -Benjamin Klahn

You have to realise that Teela isn't a proper Pak protector, just like
Louis Wu isn't a true Pak breeder. Homo Sapiens Sapiens has evolved
("mutated", in the Pak mind) away from the genocidal, xenocidal race
we've come to know and love.

Very rarely, a *Pak* protector can generalize his protective instincts
to include his entire species. Even so, the one example detailed in
"Protector" (in the opinon of the first *human* protector) couldn't be
trusted to extend that to include his human 'cousins' when he figured
out they could pose a danger to his own (true Pak) version.

"Brennan. /Why?/"
The Brennan-monster shrugged cantaloupe shoulders.
"He was wrong. I killed him because he would have tried to wipe out
humanity when he learned the truth."
(...)
"Garner, I'm not getting through to you. He'd have killed me the
moment he figured it out! (.) I wouldn't have had a chance. Then he'd
have tried to wipe out the human race. We'd hace been much worse to
him than hostile aliens. We're a corruption of the Pak form itself."

Go Pak, eh? Wink

Try and get a hold of "Protector"; the contrast between Pak and human
ways of thinking is detailed there in loving detail.

Oh, and don't top-post. 't Is slightly annoying.

Gieljan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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gieljanbzzdebz

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Since: May 26, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Mark Landin" <mark.landin DeleteThis @tdwilliamson.com> wrote in message
news:8bk6b01u4b2b0op5vdh26cmqhqrsddpnjm@4ax.com...
 > On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:05:44 -0700, John David Galt
 > <jdg DeleteThis @diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
 >
  > >BertSchnik wrote:
   > >> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in
Protector,
   > >> Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a
war
   > >> footing".
  > >
  > >All this was answered in one of the Man-Kzin Wars series. The Puppeteers
  > >are maintaining a balance among various races that might threaten them.
  > >If the Kzinti died out, humans might get too strong. Can't have that.
 >
 > In Pak vs. Puppeteers fight, my money is on the Pak.
 >
 > Could the Puppeteers prevent the PakRoy from exterminating the Kzinti?

Easy. Make a number 1 hulls drop out of hyperspace a few hundred miles
before the Pak armada as it's coursing through interstellar space to it's
target. The hulls impact before anyone has a time to react. (the Puppeteers
would have to hit mid-travel, when the velocity approaches c.) A millisecond
after the light from the probe arrives at the speeding ramjets, the hull
hits the ramjet. Kaboom.

 > And then the Puppeteers?

See above.

Of course, if a few Pak get to witness the slaughter from a safe distance
and manage to escape with their lives, all bets are off. Can they develop
hyperdrive-tech? Stasis-fields? Puppeteers have a huge technological
advantage and tend to work together as a herd. Pak are inventive and vicious
but essentially, every clan is always looking for the right moment to stab
his competition in the back. It'd be a hell of a spectacle, that's for
sure...

A much more interesting fight would, of course, be the Pak vs. the
Xenomorphs. Or Puppeteers vs. Xenomorphs. Pak vs. the Borg? Wink

Gieljan
- who can already *see* a Puppeteer-Alien hybrid...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user405

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Since: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 22



(Msg. 19) Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:28 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Wed, 26 May 2004 21:07:24 +0200, "Gieljan de Vries"
<gieljanBZZdeBZZvries.DeleteThis@planet.nl> wrote:

 >
 >"Mark Landin" <mark.landin.DeleteThis@tdwilliamson.com> wrote in message
 >news:8bk6b01u4b2b0op5vdh26cmqhqrsddpnjm@4ax.com...

  >> In Pak vs. Puppeteers fight, my money is on the Pak.
  >>
  >> Could the Puppeteers prevent the PakRoy from exterminating the Kzinti?
 >
 >Easy. Make a number 1 hulls drop out of hyperspace a few hundred miles
 >before the Pak armada as it's coursing through interstellar space to it's
 >target. The hulls impact before anyone has a time to react. (the Puppeteers
 >would have to hit mid-travel, when the velocity approaches c.) A millisecond
 >after the light from the probe arrives at the speeding ramjets, the hull
 >hits the ramjet. Kaboom.
 >
  >> And then the Puppeteers?
 >
 >See above.
 >
 >Of course, if a few Pak get to witness the slaughter from a safe distance
 >and manage to escape with their lives, all bets are off. Can they develop
 >hyperdrive-tech? Stasis-fields? Puppeteers have a huge technological
 >advantage and tend to work together as a herd. Pak are inventive and vicious
 >but essentially, every clan is always looking for the right moment to stab
 >his competition in the back. It'd be a hell of a spectacle, that's for
 >sure...

Agreed: a Pak's strength is his intellect: give a Pak a problem, and
there's only one right answer, meaning all Pak would come up with the
same answer, given the same problem. Makes planning meetings really
short. :)Their ability to do long-range planning is also impressive,
and, like Puppeteers, are not afraid to engage in "big" projects.
Building the Ringworld is an impressive feat! Their weakness is their
inability to work together, although one assumes that it took more
then just a couple of Pak to build the Ring.

Louis Wu also implies that the Puppeteers would consider the Pak a
serious threat ... he withholds that information from Nessus (or was
it the Hindmost?) to prevent a catatonic fear reaction from their
captor.

I'm not sure how much of a tech advantage the Puppeteers have. The Pak
did build the Ringworld, after all. One could also assume that
whatever technology the Pak were unable to develop could be purchased
/ stolen from the Outsiders, except for proprietary Puppetter
technology. (Did the Outsiders sell the secret of GP hulls to the
puppeteers?)

Further, it probably wouldn't take a Pak long to find the weakness in
a GP hull that the puppeteers didn't anticipate: gravity. And there's
always anti-matter.

 >A much more interesting fight would, of course, be the Pak vs. the
 >Xenomorphs. Or Puppeteers vs. Xenomorphs. Pak vs. the Borg? Wink

Again, the Pak present an interesting opponent because they are
protrayed as more "intelligent" than any of those species.

The Xenomorphs seems quite tough and reproduce (and GROW!) very
rapidly ... but then again, caseless explosive-tipped light armor
peircing shells seemed to go through their bodies effectively. Smile They
seemingly have no 'tech' ... just brute strength. Pak vs Xenos would
seem to be just a "bug hunt".

The Borg .. hard to guage that. They are tech pirates. They coordinate
very well. But their cyber-security is pretty weak...

I think Pak/Puppeteer would have plenty of fireworks for the
observers!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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zamboni

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Since: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 7



(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Mark Landin" <mark.landin.DeleteThis@tdwilliamson.com> wrote in message
news:8bqbb0hp1slv0gfvusmerfq54420ijb3se@4ax.com...
 >
 > I'm not sure how much of a tech advantage the Puppeteers have. The Pak
 > did build the Ringworld, after all.

I think in some of the Man-Kzin War books (perhaps _Dark Design_ in
particular), it's stated that the Ringworld was built by the Outsiders as a
Pak "zoo". This would allow the Outsiders to record Pak breeding cycles (and
ensuing speciazation). Not sure if it's canon, though.
--
Zamboni<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tennant1

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Since: Sep 27, 2003
Posts: 24



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 4:41 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <2hk7sdFe2bjiU1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>, "Gieljan de Vries"
<gieljanBZZdeBZZvries.RemoveThis@planet.nl> wrote:

 > A much more interesting fight would, of course, be the Pak vs. the
 > Xenomorphs. Or Puppeteers vs. Xenomorphs. Pak vs. the Borg? Wink

Pak vs. the Road Runner (meep meep).


Tennant Stuart

--
____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____
(_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family
)( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours
(__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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thaddaeusv

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Since: May 29, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 22) Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 9:10 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Mark Landin <mark.landin RemoveThis @tdwilliamson.com> wrote in
news:8bqbb0hp1slv0gfvusmerfq54420ijb3se@4ax.com:
 > Further, it probably wouldn't take a Pak long to find the weakness in
 > a GP hull that the puppeteers didn't anticipate: gravity. And there's
 > always anti-matter.

Or lasers in the visible band. GP hulls pass visible light, so it
shouldn't matter if the light is coherent or not.

--
Thaddaeus A. Vick, Linguist to the Masses
aka Cellach Cosnocht mac Cuain, Rogue Herald of Meridies
ThaddaeusV RemoveThis @yahoo.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gieljanbzzdebz

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Since: May 26, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 23) Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 1:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Tennant Stuart" <tennant.RemoveThis@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:na.3172c84cb6.a806e0tennant@argonet.co.uk...
 > In article <2hk7sdFe2bjiU1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>, "Gieljan de Vries"
 > <gieljanBZZdeBZZvries.RemoveThis@planet.nl> wrote:
 >
  > > A much more interesting fight would, of course, be the Pak vs. the
  > > Xenomorphs. Or Puppeteers vs. Xenomorphs. Pak vs. the Borg? Wink
 >
 > Pak vs. the Road Runner (meep meep).

Bah, that's easy. Flawless Victory for the Roadrunner.

(And a whole new branch of frustrated Pak, dedicated to nailing down and
eradicating this ACME-label that's cropping up everywhere.)

Pak vs. H.G. Wells' Martians? ;-p

--
Gieljan
<remove BZZ to reply>

Today I wear these chains, and am here.
Tomorrow, I shall be fetterless! - But where?
Edgar Allan Poe - The Imp of the Perverse<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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eric_harris_76

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Since: May 29, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 24) Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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bertschnik DeleteThis @aol.com (BertSchnik) wrote in
news:20040125150001.28443.00000676@mb-m01.aol.com:

 >
 >
 > Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in
 > Protector,
 > Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a
 > war footing".
 >

See this 2000 thread for my thoughts on the matter Smile

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&safe=off&th=c617b6055686be32&seekm=3A33BB77%40MailAndNews.com#link1" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&safe=off&t...617b605</a>

--
-Hk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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anim8rfsk

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Since: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 121



(Msg. 25) Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 9:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<< Easy. Make a number 1 hulls drop out of hyperspace a few hundred miles
before the Pak armada as it's coursing through interstellar space to it's
target. The hulls impact before anyone has a time to react. >>

Number one hulls are the size of basketballs. We've never seen hyperdrive
motors that small, have we?
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anim8rfsk

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Since: Jul 28, 2003
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<< From: Mark Landin mark.landin.DeleteThis@tdwilliamson.com >>


<< Agreed: a Pak's strength is his intellect: give a Pak a problem, and
there's only one right answer, meaning all Pak would come up with the
same answer, given the same problem. >>

The hard part is giving multiple Pak the same problem, given that they all have
hard-wired personal agendas.
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anim8rfsk

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Since: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 121



(Msg. 27) Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 9:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<< From: "Thaddaeus A. Vick" thaddaeusv RemoveThis @yahoo.com >>


<< Or lasers in the visible band. GP hulls pass visible light, so it
shouldn't matter if the light is coherent or not. >>

But the flare shielding should stop a beam that's intense enough to do damage.
Louis was only able to laser the hyperdrive motor to slag because there wasn't
any flare shielding on the floor.
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gieljanbzzdebz

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Since: May 26, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 28) Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:35 pm
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"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim8rfsk.RemoveThis@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20040530141910.13763.00000107@mb-m27.aol.com...
 > << Easy. Make a number 1 hulls drop out of hyperspace a few hundred miles
 > before the Pak armada as it's coursing through interstellar space to it's
 > target. The hulls impact before anyone has a time to react. >>
 >
 > Number one hulls are the size of basketballs. We've never seen hyperdrive
 > motors that small, have we?

Good point, but easily circumvented: deploy the #1 hulls from a #2 ship. Or
skip the little spheres and just drop #2 ships in stasis directly in the
flight path. (Not a very puppeteer thing to do, by the way; the whole plan
sounds like something one Pak'd use against another Wink<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ernestf

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Since: Nov 14, 2003
Posts: 929



(Msg. 29) Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:35 pm
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"Gieljan de Vries" <gieljanBZZdeBZZvries RemoveThis @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:2hunh0Fgkvq1U1@uni-berlin.de...
 >
 > Good point, but easily circumvented: deploy the #1 hulls from a #2
ship. Or
 > skip the little spheres and just drop #2 ships in stasis directly in
the
 > flight path. (Not a very puppeteer thing to do, by the way; the whole
plan
 > sounds like something one Pak'd use against another Wink

Sounds more like something humans would do.

Errr, wait. Hmmm.

Have a great day!

Ernest
_____________________
"In the begining there was nothing, then God said, "Let there be
light"... and there was still nothing, but you could see it."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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anim8rfsk

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Posts: 121



(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:27 am
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<< From: "Gieljan de Vries" gieljanBZZdeBZZvries.TakeThisOut@planet.nl >>


<< Good point, but easily circumvented: deploy the #1 hulls from a #2 ship. Or
skip the little spheres and just drop #2 ships in stasis directly in the
flight path. >>

Maybe. Do we know what happens if you toss something out the door in
hyperspace? It might just be lost in the blind spot forever.
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