Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22)

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 03:39:58 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

> mimf <mimf DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2007.08.12.03.13.41.98123@nospam.com:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:06:39 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>
>>> mimf <mimf DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in
>>> news:pan.2007.08.11.20.07.49.27003@nospam.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:34:35 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I could handle Beast giving a shorthand version (though for no
>>>>> discernible reason) but the lying makes little sense. Why lie about
>>>>> Jean and not the arguably more powerful Nate Grey? Based on what DB
>>>>> said, it's a heck of a lot easier to bring him back.
>>>>
>>>> Does Dark Beast know about Xorn and the Collective? I can see Beast
>>>> not wanting to have to explain who Xorn was and what the Collective
>>>> was to him.
>>>
>>> Doesn't matter. "A Magneto imposter killed Jean." Really simple
>>> stuff.
>>
>> But that gives rise to the question about who the Magneto imposter was.
>> Dark Beast knows who Magneto is, but might be curious to know more
>> details about a "Magneto imposter" and how the imposter managed to kill
>> Jean.
>
> It also gives rise to: if Magneto just killed Phoenix, why the hell were
> he and Xavier hanging around on friendly terms? That specific things
> raises way more questions than mentioning an imposter.

I guess the writer just messed up then.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon.TakeThisOut@austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:t10tb35coacjo81gha8ifihp2pmj4aepga@4ax.com:

> On 11 Aug 2007 12:26:59 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>>I just wanted to bring a little ray of sunshine into your life.
>
> Anyone want to take bets on how long before we start seeing Scott's
> and Emma's alternate future/cloned offspring popping up?

Didn't one of the 600 issues of X-Men: The End have them? (I didn't
read it but browsed it in the store. It was long.) Anyway, they don't
count because only the Summers/Grey mix matters. Just ask Mister
Sinister.

No, the key is to find out who mixes well with the Cuckoos
since they are Emma's clones. I would have said Quentin/Sophie but that
doesn't appear to be an option. Maybe one of the remaining three will
develop a personality and get to it?

On a side note, I was wondering if two of the Cuckoos might have further
mutated beyond the others. Sophie and Esme were both able to hide their
feelings from the others and show interest in people other than
themselves. That's certainly different. Or maybe the Three-in-One are
those mutations, which is why they don't really have separate
personalities.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

The Black Guardian <blakgard RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in
news:1186890437.276320.100400@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

> Dan McEwen wrote:
>> The Black Guardian wrote:
>>> Billy Bissette wrote:
>>>> The Black Guardian wrote:
>>>>> Dan McEwen wrote:
>>>>>> No real spoilers, but I have to point out something that
>>>>>> Cat Hank said to Ape Hank:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jean fell fighting Magneto. He caused an electrical surge
>>>>>> in her brain. She died in Scott's arms of a massive stroke."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does that suggest that the retcon is being retconned?
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> More than likely Hank just didn't want to tell Dark Beast the
>>>>> truth. Hank also doesn't mention anything about the last time
>>>>> Jean was seen (that is, during PHOENIX: ENDSONG).
>>>>
>>>> He has no reason not to tell Dark Beast the truth. It seems more
>>>> like something the writer didn't know, and just wasn't checked.
>>>> Beast could have as easily have said "Xorn" instead of "Magneto".
>>>
>>> While I'm not going to disagree, he has no reason to tell Dark
>>> Beast the truth, either. And we know that Hank knows what he told
>>> Dark Beast isn't true.
>>
>> I could handle Beast giving a shorthand version (though for no
>> discernible reason) but the lying makes little sense. Why lie
>> about Jean and not the arguably more powerful Nate Grey? Based on
>> what DB said, it's a heck of a lot easier to bring him back.
>
> Because it brings up Xorn/Collective and Sublime.

Not really. Beast has no reason to mention Sublime.

And what would Xorn mean to Dark Beast? Just a guy that killed
Jean. If Dark Beast did perk at Xorn, and Beast saw any reason to
hide further details, then he could be bothered to lie or just brush
it off.

Heck, Beast didn't even have a reason to say who killed Jean to
begin with. He just needed to say that Jean died of an aneurism.
If Dark Beast responded, then Beast could choose what more to say.

Beast is the one that had chosen to go into details in the first
place.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9989F102A1BB6McEwen@130.133.1.4:

> On a side note, I was wondering if two of the Cuckoos might have
> further mutated beyond the others. Sophie and Esme were both able
> to hide their feelings from the others and show interest in people
> other than themselves. That's certainly different.

Well, it probably should just be natural over time.

Being a clone doesn't truly make you identical. They are going to
have seperate experiences, even if they spend most of their time
together. And there is epigenetics to possibly further differentiate
them.

They really should start to develop some differences in
personalities in an environment as unrestricted as the school.

Besides, I got the feeling that the other three at first went more
towards a unified personality in reaction to Sophie and Esme
spreading out. As for Here Comes Tomorrow, we don't know what drove
them to that point... (Heck, we don't really know how much that was
even them.)
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

grinningdemon <grinningdemon.DeleteThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:r60tb3p2rh45nm40kbtp95rmt42tsg7f4s@4ax.com:

> On 11 Aug 2007 21:07:26 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>mimf <mimf.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in

>>> Why would Wanda want to bring him back? She hates him. It would make
>>> more sense for her to bring back her Mama, or the family who raised
>>> her.
>>
>>Um, House of M? She brought him back there, and as the leader of
>>mutants.. She couldn't have wanted him too gone.
>
> I still see some serious flaws in that whole "deepest desire" idea
> from House of M...Fantastic Four, anyone?

On some levels, it was about what Wanda wanted. It's possible that her
overall goals were met but the details were up in the air. That meant
that in order for her to accomplish a stated goal - give daddy a world
to rule so he'll shut the hell up and stop fighting - other events
shifted. That left the FF in a bad way. However, I have no idea what
happened to them since I didn't read the HoM: FF mini. I just heard
something vague along the lines of "it was bad".
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:26:01 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

> grinningdemon <grinningdemon.DeleteThis@austin.rr.com> wrote in
> news:r60tb3p2rh45nm40kbtp95rmt42tsg7f4s@4ax.com:
>
>> On 11 Aug 2007 21:07:26 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>mimf <mimf.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in
>
>>>> Why would Wanda want to bring him back? She hates him. It would make
>>>> more sense for her to bring back her Mama, or the family who raised
>>>> her.
>>>
>>>Um, House of M? She brought him back there, and as the leader of
>>>mutants.. She couldn't have wanted him too gone.
>>
>> I still see some serious flaws in that whole "deepest desire" idea from
>> House of M...Fantastic Four, anyone?
>
> On some levels, it was about what Wanda wanted. It's possible that her
> overall goals were met but the details were up in the air. That meant
> that in order for her to accomplish a stated goal - give daddy a world to
> rule so he'll shut the hell up and stop fighting - other events shifted.
> That left the FF in a bad way. However, I have no idea what happened to
> them since I didn't read the HoM: FF mini. I just heard something vague
> along the lines of "it was bad".
*
*
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
*
*
Instead of getting powers when they went into space, they were all killed
-- except for Thing, who got powers but was severely brain damaged.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On Aug 12, 7:22 pm, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAM....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> mimf <m....DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote innews:pan.2007.08.12.19.02.26.408177@nospam.com:
>
> >> The thing was not about them being physically identical but being
> >> part of a telepathic gestalt. It seemed like they were of one mind -
> >> until Esme and Sophie showed them that not only was it not true but
> >> that they could hide it from the others. Esme, in particular,
> >> completely shocked the Three-in-One. Prior, and mostly since (though
> >> there was some development in Warsong), they act as one.
>
> > Doesn't what happened in Warsong kind of preclude any future character
> > development?
>
> For the moment. I can't see them staying diamond forever.

I don't think they're diamond, just their hearts.

You know I'd kind of like to find out one of the Cuckoos couldn't
really let Esme and Sophie go and ended up pushing them into two
bodies of the other clones and letting them escape.

JLB
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

Billy Bissette <baines RemoveThis @coastalnet.com> wrote in
news:Xns998A1CD9E1E2Cwhatcholookinat@216.168.3.70:

> Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in
> news:Xns9989F102A1BB6McEwen@130.133.1.4:
>
>> On a side note, I was wondering if two of the Cuckoos might have
>> further mutated beyond the others. Sophie and Esme were both able
>> to hide their feelings from the others and show interest in people
>> other than themselves. That's certainly different.
>
> Well, it probably should just be natural over time.
>
> Being a clone doesn't truly make you identical. They are going to
> have seperate experiences, even if they spend most of their time
> together. And there is epigenetics to possibly further differentiate
> them.

The thing was not about them being physically identical but being part
of a telepathic gestalt. It seemed like they were of one mind - until
Esme and Sophie showed them that not only was it not true but that they
could hide it from the others. Esme, in particular, completely shocked
the Three-in-One. Prior, and mostly since (though there was some
development in Warsong), they act as one.

> They really should start to develop some differences in
> personalities in an environment as unrestricted as the school.

In theory.

> Besides, I got the feeling that the other three at first went more
> towards a unified personality in reaction to Sophie and Esme
> spreading out. As for Here Comes Tomorrow, we don't know what drove
> them to that point... (Heck, we don't really know how much that was
> even them.)

As I saw it, they seemed to be a unified personality and were shocked by
the separateness of Sophie and Esme. Also "Three-in-One" doesn't
exactly suggest individuality.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:29:12 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

> Billy Bissette <baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote in
> news:Xns998A1CD9E1E2Cwhatcholookinat@216.168.3.70:
>
>> Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:Xns9989F102A1BB6McEwen@130.133.1.4:
>>
>>> On a side note, I was wondering if two of the Cuckoos might have
>>> further mutated beyond the others. Sophie and Esme were both able to
>>> hide their feelings from the others and show interest in people other
>>> than themselves. That's certainly different.
>>
>> Well, it probably should just be natural over time.
>>
>> Being a clone doesn't truly make you identical. They are going to
>> have seperate experiences, even if they spend most of their time
>> together. And there is epigenetics to possibly further differentiate
>> them.
>
> The thing was not about them being physically identical but being part of
> a telepathic gestalt. It seemed like they were of one mind - until Esme
> and Sophie showed them that not only was it not true but that they could
> hide it from the others. Esme, in particular, completely shocked the
> Three-in-One. Prior, and mostly since (though there was some development
> in Warsong), they act as one.
>

Doesn't what happened in Warsong kind of preclude any future character
development?
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

The Black Guardian <blakgard DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in
news:1186890437.276320.100400@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

> Dan McEwen wrote:

>> I could handle Beast giving a shorthand version (though for no
>> discernible reason) but the lying makes little sense. Why lie
>> about Jean and not the arguably more powerful Nate Grey? Based on
>> what DB said, it's a heck of a lot easier to bring him back.
>
> Because it brings up Xorn/Collective and Sublime.
>
> Frankly, I don't see how telling the truth, especially in Jean's case,
> makes any sense. Based on what we've seen, it's a heck of a lot easier
> to bring Jean back. It's also more risky, because they don't know
> whether she'd be Jeanix or Dark Jeanix.

Okay, scenario. Dark Beast appears in New Excalibur. Xavier and
Magneto also hang out, acting like best buds. Magneto has *just* killed
Phoenix. Wouldn't that be a red flag for DB? I guarantee it raises
more questions that anything about a Magneto impersonator. Hank is
under no obligation to explain the collective or Sublime. He just has
to say "crazy Magneto imposter".
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9989F053C891AMcEwen@130.133.1.4:

> mimf <mimf.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2007.08.12.03.13.41.98123@nospam.com:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:06:39 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>
>>> mimf <mimf.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in
>>> news:pan.2007.08.11.20.07.49.27003@nospam.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:34:35 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I could handle Beast giving a shorthand version (though for no
>>>>> discernible reason) but the lying makes little sense. Why lie
>>>>> about Jean and not the arguably more powerful Nate Grey? Based on
>>>>> what DB said, it's a heck of a lot easier to bring him back.
>>>>
>>>> Does Dark Beast know about Xorn and the Collective? I can see Beast
>>>> not wanting to have to explain who Xorn was and what the Collective
>>>> was to him.
>>>
>>> Doesn't matter. "A Magneto imposter killed Jean." Really simple
>>> stuff.
>>
>> But that gives rise to the question about who the Magneto imposter
>> was. Dark Beast knows who Magneto is, but might be curious to know
>> more details about a "Magneto imposter" and how the imposter managed
>> to kill Jean.
>
> It also gives rise to: if Magneto just killed Phoenix, why the hell
> were he and Xavier hanging around on friendly terms? That specific
> things raises way more questions than mentioning an imposter.

Claremont wrote Xavier and Magneto in Genosha, and he was dropping
hints that could imply there was more going on than just friendship.

It isn't hard to read those issues and think that Xavier is hiding
something from Magneto, or even outright involved in a deception.
(The way he acts around Magneto, what he tells Magneto about New
York, the warning of Magneto's power-related problems, people having
problems when it came to thinking about or recognizing Magneto,
etc...)

I figured Claremont was going for the idea that Xavier had faked
Magneto's death even to the X-Men. Xavier knew Magneto wasn't in
his right mind in New York. (Claremont may have even have thought
the Xorn mask talking to Magneto was actually Xavier.) So he could
fake Magneto's death, then hide him in Genosha while he secretly
worked on Magneto's mind to repair the damage (because a sane
Magneto wouldn't exactly be happy about New York). The whole
imposter thing could have been a fiction created by Xavier.

But we don't know what Claremont really wanted. And the higher
ups are Marvel seemed more focused on completely reversing Morrison,
rather that working within it. (Not to mention that Claremont likes
to drop tons of vague hints and potential plot hooks, even when he'd
only ever use a fraction of them if given the time.)
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On 12 Aug 2007 03:44:00 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com>
wrote:

>grinningdemon <grinningdemon RemoveThis @austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:t10tb35coacjo81gha8ifihp2pmj4aepga@4ax.com:
>
>> On 11 Aug 2007 12:26:59 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy RemoveThis @gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>I just wanted to bring a little ray of sunshine into your life.
>>
>> Anyone want to take bets on how long before we start seeing Scott's
>> and Emma's alternate future/cloned offspring popping up?
>
>Didn't one of the 600 issues of X-Men: The End have them? (I didn't
>read it but browsed it in the store. It was long.) Anyway, they don't
>count because only the Summers/Grey mix matters. Just ask Mister
>Sinister.

Actually, it seems like every story that revisits this makes the
Summers contribution less and less important...it's like it's all Jean
now...which strikes me as really stupid given the level of emphasis
placed on the two of them together in the past but whatever.

And, yes, Scott and Emma did have kids in X-Men: The End...three or
four of them...I don't really remember much because it was lame but
the completionist in me forced me to buy and read the whole thing.

>
>No, the key is to find out who mixes well with the Cuckoos
>since they are Emma's clones. I would have said Quentin/Sophie but that
>doesn't appear to be an option. Maybe one of the remaining three will
>develop a personality and get to it?
>
>On a side note, I was wondering if two of the Cuckoos might have further
>mutated beyond the others. Sophie and Esme were both able to hide their
>feelings from the others and show interest in people other than
>themselves. That's certainly different. Or maybe the Three-in-One are
>those mutations, which is why they don't really have separate
>personalities.

I thought Phoenix Warsong established that they had a hive mind-type
thing going on but they could also branch out from that if they were
properly motivated.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22) 

On 12 Aug 2007 16:26:01 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
wrote:

>grinningdemon <grinningdemon.TakeThisOut@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:r60tb3p2rh45nm40kbtp95rmt42tsg7f4s@4ax.com:
>
>> On 11 Aug 2007 21:07:26 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>mimf <mimf.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote in
>
>>>> Why would Wanda want to bring him back? She hates him. It would make
>>>> more sense for her to bring back her Mama, or the family who raised
>>>> her.
>>>
>>>Um, House of M? She brought him back there, and as the leader of
>>>mutants.. She couldn't have wanted him too gone.
>>
>> I still see some serious flaws in that whole "deepest desire" idea
>> from House of M...Fantastic Four, anyone?
>
>On some levels, it was about what Wanda wanted. It's possible that her
>overall goals were met but the details were up in the air. That meant
>that in order for her to accomplish a stated goal - give daddy a world
>to rule so he'll shut the hell up and stop fighting - other events
>shifted. That left the FF in a bad way. However, I have no idea what
>happened to them since I didn't read the HoM: FF mini. I just heard
>something vague along the lines of "it was bad".

Ben, Sue, and Johnny died in the accident that was supposed to give
them their powers and Ben was the psychotic Doom family
pet...basically, Doom got everything he wanted and the rest got the
shaft...which doesn't really line up with your theory about Wanda
doing what she really wanted...nor does Apocalypse ruling
Africa...she's have no reason to help these guys out and scew everyone
else...and why would she bring back Hawkeye and not any of the others
she killed like, say, her husband...the whole storyline was just
poorly conceived from start to finish.
 >> Stay informed about: Endangered Species Chapter 7 (from X-Factor 22)