Books to read before you die

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 07:19:24 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang>
wrote:

>"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:squjl3dlqbp7edinu5jqhabrno132ij1lh@4ax.com...
>
>[snip]
>
>> In the genre, I think the Alice books are better than "The master and
>> Margarita", and among Russian authors, yes, I think Dostoevsky is better.
>>
>> I thought "The master and Margarita" started off well, but lost it towards
>> the
>> end.
>
>I emphatically disagree, but obviously, this is a matter of differing
>tastes. I must confess that I am puzzled by your placing children's books
>such as "Alice" in the same genre as "The Master and Margarita", which is
>written for quite different purposes, including faith and social satire.
>Anyway, whether they belong in the same genre or not, I do like "The Master
>and Margarita" better.

While the Alice books are children's books, and can be read and enjoyed by
children, rereading them as an adult can open up many things that onme missed
as a child. Martin Gardner's commentary in "The Annotated Alice" is also a
must read.

The genre is fantasy, or the absurd, if you like, though that was applied more
to the theatre than to novels. Perhaps surreal is a better word.


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw DeleteThis @hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:squjl3dlqbp7edinu5jqhabrno132ij1lh@4ax.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> In the genre, I think the Alice books are better than "The master and
>> Margarita", and among Russian authors, yes, I think Dostoevsky is better.
>>
> I emphatically disagree, but obviously, this is a matter of differing
> tastes. I must confess that I am puzzled by your placing children's books
> such as "Alice"

Heretic! While there is no doubt that Mr. Dodgson wrote /Alice/ as stories
to tell to children, they go well beyond being "children's books". Now,
I'm going to have to go back and reread /The Annotated Alice/ (and, I
suppose, have to add /The Master and Margarita/ to my list).
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

Steve Hayes <hayesmstw.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>:

["preachy"]

> I take it as meaning an attempt by the author be moralising and to tell the
> reader what to do or believe.
> In Lewis's case it is most obvious in the asides to the reader about never
> shutting yourself in a wardrobe etc.
> Also, for example, in the long speeches by the planetary rulers at the end of
> "Perelandra".
> In Pullman it is likewise seen in speeches by angels when they expound the
> gnostic worldview, and also when explaining the benefits of mingling your
> atoms with those of the rest of the universe.

I agree both Lewis and Pullman do some moralizing, but the
angels seen in _His Dark Materials_ aren't describing the
gnostic perspective. You've got the idea that in Pullman, "the
deity Christians worship is the demiurge." Trouble is
Pullman's angels say the opposite, explaining that the demiurge
isn't the Christian god:

"Tell me, then," said Will. "Tell me about
Metatron, and what this secret is. Why did that
angel call him Regent? And what is the Authority? Is
he God?"
He sat down, and the two angels, their
forms clearer in the moonlight than he had ever
seen them before, sat with him.
Balthamos said quietly, "The Authority, God, the
Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the
Father, the Almighty, those were all names he gave
himself. He was never the creator."

Got that? Yahweh "was never the creator" according to the
angel Balthamos (_The Amber Spyglass_ 15). Gnosticism --
Christian and otherwise -- criticizes the creator of this world.
Pullman, by contrast, _exempts_ the creator from his
objections, putting the _Dark Materials_ books in conflict with
the gnostic outlook.

In fact Pullman's angels at their most preachy come across
as conventional Christian Sunday-school teachers demanding
patience, perseverance, cheerfulness, hard work, and submission.

-- Catawumpus
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

Derek Broughton <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:

> Pullman argued ... (c) Lewis writes great criticism, but cops out when it
> comes to fantasy - I at least agree partly there, when he said that a better
> moral message at the end would have had the children going on to do good in
> the world, rather than dieing in a train crash and going to their reward in
> the afterlife.

One day an angry lady stopped me on the street and
said she did not like a book I wrote but that if I
lived up to the best in me I might write a good
Christian novel like _The Cardinal_ by Henry Morton
Robinson or perhaps even _The Foundling_ by Cardinal
Spellman.

Walker Percy, from "Notes for a Novel about the End of the
World."

-- Catawumpus
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

On 2007-12-05, Steve Hayes <hayesmstw DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> British librarians have compiled a list of 30 books to read before you die.
>
> It has some strange inclusions, and some strange omissions.

[...]

> What about "Alice's adventured in Wonderland", which they omitted?

I have always had a small issue with this author, not with his
literature, as he appears to have had a few issues with small
children. Certainly he was a /very/ unusual man who produced amazing
literature though but I find it hard to ignore his character.

Andrew
--
"For the God who sings"
http://www.andrews-corner.org/ftgws.html
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:43:28 UTC, andrew <andrew.TakeThisOut@ilium.invalid> wrote:

> On 2007-12-05, Steve Hayes <hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > British librarians have compiled a list of 30 books to read before you die.
> >
> > It has some strange inclusions, and some strange omissions.
>
> [...]
>
> > What about "Alice's adventured in Wonderland", which they omitted?
>
> I have always had a small issue with this author, not with his
> literature, as he appears to have had a few issues with small
> children. Certainly he was a /very/ unusual man who produced amazing
> literature though but I find it hard to ignore his character.

Any indication that he ever did anything that he oughtn't to have done?
This much is certain: he did not generate lawsuits, or some Victorian
equivalent, from people claiming abuse, but he did generate some long-term
friendships and some that were not, kind of like real people. (Actually,
the Victorian equivalent of a lawsuit was a lawsuit; cf. Oscar Wilde.)

Not that you don't have a right to like or dislike people and their works
for whatever reason you please; but in this case we're talking of what
people in general might read, which might not have much to do with
personal preferences as to what a person is thought to have thought about.


--
Dan Drake
dd.TakeThisOut@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

andrew wrote:
> On 2007-12-05, Steve Hayes <hayesmstw DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>British librarians have compiled a list of 30 books to read before you die.
>>
>>It has some strange inclusions, and some strange omissions.
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>What about "Alice's adventured in Wonderland", which they omitted?
>
>
> I have always had a small issue with this author, not with his
> literature, as he appears to have had a few issues with small
> children. Certainly he was a /very/ unusual man who produced amazing
> literature though but I find it hard to ignore his character.
>
> Andrew


Do you have any evidence of inappropriate behaviour?


Francis A. Miniter
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:43:28 +1100, andrew <andrew DeleteThis @ilium.invalid> wrote:

>On 2007-12-05, Steve Hayes <hayesmstw DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>> British librarians have compiled a list of 30 books to read before you die.
>>
>> It has some strange inclusions, and some strange omissions.
>
>[...]
>
>> What about "Alice's adventured in Wonderland", which they omitted?
>
>I have always had a small issue with this author, not with his
>literature, as he appears to have had a few issues with small
>children. Certainly he was a /very/ unusual man who produced amazing
>literature though but I find it hard to ignore his character.

Far from having issues with children, he seemed to get on better with them
than he did with adults.


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

Dan Drake wrote:

>>
>>>What about "Alice's adventured in Wonderland", which they omitted?
>>
>>I have always had a small issue with this author, not with his
>>literature, as he appears to have had a few issues with small
>>children. Certainly he was a /very/ unusual man who produced amazing
>>literature though but I find it hard to ignore his character.
>
> Not that you don't have a right to like or dislike people and their works
> for whatever reason you please; but in this case we're talking of what
> people in general might read, which might not have much to do with
> personal preferences as to what a person is thought to have thought about.

And besides, any proclivities or creepy over-affection don't
particularly show up in to any noticeable degree in either of the Alice
books--
Now, "Sylvie & Bruno", OTOH...

Derek Janssen
ejanss1.TakeThisOut@verizon.net
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

On 2007-12-11, Francis A. Miniter <miniter.DeleteThis@attglobalZZ.net> wrote:
> andrew wrote:

[...]

>> I have always had a small issue with this author, not with his
>> literature, as he appears to have had a few issues with small
>> children. Certainly he was a /very/ unusual man who produced amazing
>> literature though but I find it hard to ignore his character.

[...]

> Do you have any evidence of inappropriate behaviour?

As far as a know there was never any /solid/ evidence of Lewis Carroll
having an inappropriate relationship with a small child. He certainly
showed an extreme interest in young girls and a lack of interest in
adult females. His lesser known work is his photography which
frequently featured naked and semi-naked girls. And certainly his best
relationships were with children and his interest in them failed when
they became older.

Enough there for substantial suspicion, but no direct evidence, but
this is not unusual and is frequently seen these days as well. I don't
wish it to seem that I /alone/ am accusing Lewis Carroll of such
behaviour, this is a stream of research that has been investigated by
many people. A quick search through the back pages of the Norton
edition of Aloce in Wonderland shows an article by Peter Coveney from
which I quote:

'Dodgson's obsession with little girls was both sexual and sexually
morbid. His own insistence on the purity of his interest has perhaps a
telling, even a morbid undertone.'

'Alice in Wonderland' Lewis Carroll, Edited by Donald J. Gray, A
Norton Critical Edition, 2nd Edition. page 334.

I am not surprised that in light of these concerns that his book was
not selected.

Andrew

--
"For the God who sings"
http://www.andrews-corner.org/ftgws.html
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:35:24 UTC, andrew <andrew DeleteThis @ilium.invalid> wrote:

>... an article by Peter Coveney from
> which I quote:
>
> 'Dodgson's obsession with little girls was both sexual and sexually
> morbid. His own insistence on the purity of his interest has perhaps a
> telling, even a morbid undertone.'
>
> 'Alice in Wonderland' Lewis Carroll, Edited by Donald J. Gray, A
> Norton Critical Edition, 2nd Edition. page 334.
>
> I am not surprised that in light of these concerns that his book was
> not selected.

No, I'm not extremely surprised, either: the current morbid fascination,
which perhaps is a morbidly sexual fascination, with the thought of a
possibility of abuse of children makes it plausible.

Still, weren't there librarians or something involved in this? They tend,
on the left side of the Pond anyway, to pride themselves on not submitting
to whatever the current hysteria may be.


--
Dan Drake
dd DeleteThis @dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

Dan Drake wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:35:24 UTC, andrew <andrew RemoveThis @ilium.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>... an article by Peter Coveney from
>>which I quote:
>>
>>'Dodgson's obsession with little girls was both sexual and sexually
>>morbid. His own insistence on the purity of his interest has perhaps a
>>telling, even a morbid undertone.'
>>
>>'Alice in Wonderland' Lewis Carroll, Edited by Donald J. Gray, A
>>Norton Critical Edition, 2nd Edition. page 334.
>>
>>I am not surprised that in light of these concerns that his book was
>>not selected.
>
>
> No, I'm not extremely surprised, either: the current morbid fascination,
> which perhaps is a morbidly sexual fascination, with the thought of a
> possibility of abuse of children makes it plausible.
>
> Still, weren't there librarians or something involved in this? They tend,
> on the left side of the Pond anyway, to pride themselves on not submitting
> to whatever the current hysteria may be.
>
>

Sad, isn't it. At worst, it would seem that Lewis Carroll had sexual urges for
young girls that he sublimated into great works of art and so avoided acting on
them sexually. At best, he was a man with a speech disorder who was in
consequence shy with adults, who found refuge in the world of children and
fantasy.

No one questions the makers of blood and gore horror movies. They may be
sublimating their desires to commit mayhem on the audience.


Francis A. Miniter
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die 

Francis A. Miniter wrote:

> Sad, isn't it. At worst, it would seem that Lewis Carroll had sexual
> urges for young girls that he sublimated into great works of art and so
> avoided acting on
> them sexually. At best, he was a man with a speech disorder who was in
> consequence shy with adults, who found refuge in the world of children and
> fantasy.
>
> No one questions the makers of blood and gore horror movies. They may be
> sublimating their desires to commit mayhem on the audience.

In fact, we hope they are!
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Books to read before you die