Tolkien Quoted in Babylon 5

Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> John W. Kennedy <jwkenne.RemoveThis@attglobal.net> wrote:
>> It should be noted, however, that the /main/ story influences on
>> "Babylon 5" are the Lensmen series by E. E. "Doc" Smith, and "The
>> Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. (In both the real world and the
>> fictional world, the B5 character was named for the novelist.) There are
>> others, including "The Lady's Not for Burning" by Christopher Fry. Note,
>> too, that most of the stories that influenced "Babylon 5" are treated in
>> reverse -- what if it started the same way, and then went horribly wrong?
>
> But that doesn't apply to the Lensmen influence, or does it? The war
> between the, aeh, Arisians and Eddorians comes to pretty the same
> conclusion

(BIGGEST POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR "BABYLON 5")
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In "Lensmen", the Eddorians are Evil and the Arisians are Good, and Our
Heroes have to grow mighty enough to help the Arisians destroy the
Eddorians forever, just as the Arisians had planned all along. In B5,
the Shadows are overly macho Daddies and the Vorlons are overly
protective and manipulative Mommies, and our heroes have to grow in
wisdom to where they can understand this, and find a way to make both
sides back off forever, a goal that the Vorlons and the Shadows have
completely lost sight of.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
-- "Alias"
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.RemoveThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Hate to be picky but no green stones:
>>
>> "A little apart the Rangers sat... They were clad in cloaks of dark
>> grey... There was no gleam of stone or gold, or of any fair thing in all
>> their gear or harness; nor did their riders bear any badge or token, save
>> only that each cloak was pinned upon the left shoulder by a brooch of
>> silver shaped like a rayed star." (RotK, The Passing of the Grey Company)
>
> Ah! <surprised exclamation> It was Michelle! Blame her! The green stone
> must be the Elessar given to Aragorn by Arwen (via Galadriel). Were there
> any green stones in Babylon 5? And what did the Babylon 5 rangers wear?

Oh, they wore a brooch with an green or greenish-blue gemstone called
Isil'Zha set into it. The brooch was of gold and silver, but unlike the
LotR brooches appears to have been purely symbolic rather than
functional. They generally seem to be worn on the left shoulder,
although when Marcus takes his back from Delenn in Matters of Honor
(S3:E1) he pins it on the right. Their cloathing, including the cloak,
was of grey and black (although I'd say the difference between dark grey
and black is fluid).

Jamie
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Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong.DeleteThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>> "Michelle J. Haines" <mhaines.DeleteThis@nanc.com> wrote in message

>>> But there's Strazynski's insistent and repeated statement that
>>> they're based on the TEXAS Rangers, the TEXAS Rangers. Because
>>> the Texas Rangers wear grey cloaks and green stones to clasp them,
>>> right? Right! We believe him!

>> LOL! Though you have to wonder whether this was a mistake in
>> communication. Maybe the clothing department thought, "Rangers?
>> Let's do the grey cloaks and green stone thing from Tolkien", and
>> it somehow slipped through.

> Hate to be picky but no green stones: [RotK, The Passing of the Grey
> Company]

The reference is to the Elessar, "a great stone of a clear green, set
in a silver brooch".

- Dirk
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>>
>>> LOL! Though you have to wonder whether this was a mistake in
>>> communication. Maybe the clothing department thought, "Rangers?
>>> Let's do the grey cloaks and green stone thing from Tolkien", and
>>> it somehow slipped through.
>
>> Hate to be picky but no green stones: [RotK, The Passing of the Grey
>> Company]
>
> The reference is to the Elessar, "a great stone of a clear green, set
> in a silver brooch".

*cough* Thank you, Dirk. The Rangers in general did not wear green
stones, but the Chief of the Rangers did, so...the derivation is still
there.

Michelle
Flutist
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Jamie Armstrong wrote:
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> Oh, they wore a brooch with an green or greenish-blue gemstone called
> Isil'Zha set into it. The brooch was of gold and silver, but unlike the
> LotR brooches appears to have been purely symbolic rather than
> functional. They generally seem to be worn on the left shoulder,

Yeah, that's not true: They're generally worn on the right.

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quoted in Babylon 5 

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:J4gej.60202$036.18211@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote in message
> news:5tshirF1esmc9U1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> I've spent much of the holiday seson watching Babylon 5 on DVD.
>
> How nice. Rewatching or new watching? I've considered doing that for
> series like 'The Simpsons' or 'Star Trek: The Next Generation', but
> usually give up after one of two series.

Previously, I have only seen the prequel and that rather bad one about the
Rangers. I have finished Season 2 now and am waiting for the video shop to
get the other three seasons in stock. They took my name and will notify me
when it happens.

>> In Episode 3 of the Second Season, "The Geometry of Shadows", the
>> technomage Elric says: "There is an old saying: 'Do not try the patience
>> of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger'." Of course, that is
>> a direct adaption of the proverb quoted by Gildor Inglorion in "Three is
>> Company": "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle
>> and quick to anger". Perhaps this isn't news to others here, but it was
>> to me. It gave me a kick, actually.
>
> I'm sure there are more influences than that. Shadows and stuff.

Like Morgil, I noticed the names Za'ha-dum and Lorien. They can't be
coincidental.

Öjevind
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John W. Kennedy <jwkenne DeleteThis @attglobal.net> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach wrote:
>> John W. Kennedy <jwkenne DeleteThis @attglobal.net> wrote:
>>> It should be noted, however, that the /main/ story influences on
>>> "Babylon 5" are the Lensmen series by E. E. "Doc" Smith, and "The
>>> Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. (In both the real world and the
>>> fictional world, the B5 character was named for the novelist.) There are
>>> others, including "The Lady's Not for Burning" by Christopher Fry. Note,
>>> too, that most of the stories that influenced "Babylon 5" are treated in
>>> reverse -- what if it started the same way, and then went horribly wrong?
>>
>> But that doesn't apply to the Lensmen influence, or does it? The war
>> between the, aeh, Arisians and Eddorians comes to pretty the same
>> conclusion
>
> (BIGGEST POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR "BABYLON 5")
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> In "Lensmen", the Eddorians are Evil and the Arisians are Good,

I have recently re-read the whole series, and I was quite surprised
(because I had this forgotten as well) to find that multiple times,
the Eddorians and their allies are described as a "different"
civilization, which is "just" built on different principles (for example,
self-interest).

From there, it's not very far to associate one side with "order and
cooperation" and the other side "chaos and competition".

> and Our Heroes have to grow mighty enough to help the Arisians
> destroy the Eddorians forever,

As all the races have in B5 to battle the Shadows. At least for
the most part.

> just as the Arisians had planned all along.

And then, then Arisians promptly vanish, leaving the younger races
(who have now grown enough to deal with the problems on their own).

> In B5, the Shadows are overly macho Daddies and the Vorlons are
> overly protective and manipulative Mommies,

Hm. I don't remember it that way (but it's been some time since
I watched B5).

> and our heroes have to grow in wisdom to where they can understand
> this, and find a way to make both sides back off forever, a goal
> that the Vorlons and the Shadows have completely lost sight of.

But IIRC that only applies to the single episode where the whole
conflict is resolved. If you take away this episode, and just keep
"both Vorlons/Arisians and Shadows/Eddorians go away", it's pretty
much the same thing, isn't it?

- Dirk
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"Steuard" <steuard DeleteThis @slimy.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:9782fc27-aac7-4572-b822-821b649ac7cc@v32g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

>I love B5; I was first introduced to it during college, and I've
followed it ever since. However, a lack of cable over the following
years has meant that I missed out on much of what happened after the
end of the main series. (From what I've heard, that's not necessarily
a bad thing.)

I've read a lot of the information in Wikipedia about the show, as well as
read comments here, and I believe you are right. (I have also seen one of
the TV films made about B5, the one about the Rangers; it was not very good,
I thought.) But I will definitely get hold of the DVD boxes containing
Seasons 3-5 too.

> There are a lot of echoes of Tolkien there (not all
quite as direct as the technomage's quote).

I think the Rangers in B5 may be due to influences from Tolkien. Some people
have apparently suggested that the name is influenced by the Texas Rangers;
I disagree. God forbid that Chuck Norris ever pokes his face into something
related to B5. [:O
Well, that was in passing. Irrespective of my opinion of Chuck Norris and
that TV show he appears in, the mention a group of people called Rangers who
travel the wild ways secretly in service of a higher purpose reminds me of
Tolkien, not of the Texas Rangers.

>> ...it does not explain the names like Lorien and
> Za'ha-dum. The only explanation for those is that
> Tolkien himself was somehow influenced by the
> Vorlons while he was writing his mythology, who
> fed him some of his purest ideas, which also
> makes a perfect sense.

>I refer you to the following old discussion, and to the response to
point #9 in particular:

>Message-ID: <5pcnvl$2lg@sashimi.wwa.com>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/2feffb7646923b11

Those Vorlons! Interfering with everything even back to the Elder Days!
Actually, that works quite well story-internally for both mythologies.

Öjevind
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"Dirk Thierbach" <dthierbach.RemoveThis@usenet.arcornews.de> skrev i meddelandet
news:20080102070943.A8E.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de...
> John W. Kennedy <jwkenne.RemoveThis@attglobal.net> wrote:

[snip]

>> (BIGGEST POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR "BABYLON 5")
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>
>> In "Lensmen", the Eddorians are Evil and the Arisians are Good,

I read the Lensman series a very long time ago. Was Boskone just a servant
civilization of the Edorians? I don't remember. And what was the name of
that friendly dragon people?

[snip]

>> and Our Heroes have to grow mighty enough to help the Arisians
>> destroy the Eddorians forever,
>
> As all the races have in B5 to battle the Shadows. At least for
> the most part.
>
>> just as the Arisians had planned all along.
>
> And then, then Arisians promptly vanish, leaving the younger races
> (who have now grown enough to deal with the problems on their own).
>
>> In B5, the Shadows are overly macho Daddies and the Vorlons are
>> overly protective and manipulative Mommies,
>
> Hm. I don't remember it that way (but it's been some time since
> I watched B5).
>
>> and our heroes have to grow in wisdom to where they can understand
>> this, and find a way to make both sides back off forever, a goal
>> that the Vorlons and the Shadows have completely lost sight of.
>
> But IIRC that only applies to the single episode where the whole
> conflict is resolved. If you take away this episode, and just keep
> "both Vorlons/Arisians and Shadows/Eddorians go away", it's pretty
> much the same thing, isn't it?

As I mentioned in my post in response to Steuard's, I've done some reading
up on B 5. It seems that once the war has broken out, the Vorlons are
obsessively destroying whole worlds which have been "tainted" by the
Shadows, and even plan to destroy Centauri. Sheridan battles the Vorlons and
destroys so much of their fleet that they call back the ships sent out to
destroy Centauri. After that, it seems the Vorlons listen to the explanation
that they, like the Shadows, have lost track of their original assignment,
which was to protect the younger races, not "purify" them. And then both
Vorlons and Shadows agree to leave the galaxy, though

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Some evil servants of the Shadows, notably the Drakhs, are left behind...
Oddly enough, learning all this doesn't seem to destroy my expectations of
enjoying the remaining seasons when I get hold of them. I know by now that
JMS is always keeping a minium of three balls in the air.

Öjevind
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"Steuard" <steuard.RemoveThis@slimy.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:cb883c54-cca5-4308-93a3-c14a43b16fad@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

> So tell me: I know virtually nothing about the Lensmen series that I
> didn't learn from references in a bad Heinlein novel. Should I read
> the originals at this point, or are there better ways to spend my
> time?
>
> Steuard Jensen

As I recall from my reading of them long ago, they were very enjoyable. Doc
Smith is no stylist and no great describer of personality either, but he has
so many brilliant ideas that it doesn't really matter much.

> ObTolkien: I have no clear memory of how much sci-fi Tolkien read,
> especially "pulp" stories (is that at all an accurate take on
> Lensmen?). Does anyone know if he expressed opinions about the big
> names in sci-fi of his day?

I think the Lensman series can accurately be described as pulp. Some pulp is
enjoyable.
In Letter 294, Tolkien writes: "I enjoy the S.F. of Isaac Azimov".( The
misspelling is excusable in such an old man.) I wonder if he ever knew that
Isaac Asimov enjoyed and admired LotR.

Öjevind
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
> I think the Rangers in B5 may be due to influences from Tolkien. Some people
> have apparently suggested that the name is influenced by the Texas Rangers;
> I disagree. God forbid that Chuck Norris ever pokes his face into something
> related to B5. [:O

http://www.midwinter.com/b5/Usenet/jms95-03-usenet

Do a text search for Tolkien and you'll find the post (though not the
original question). He says it's not based on Tolkien. The rest of us
say. "Sure, you betcha."

Michelle
Flutist
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"Michelle J. Haines" <mhaines.RemoveThis@nanc.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:a7c27$477bd8c6$4127760a$23251@hpnx.com...
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>> I think the Rangers in B5 may be due to influences from Tolkien. Some
>> people have apparently suggested that the name is influenced by the Texas
>> Rangers; I disagree. God forbid that Chuck Norris ever pokes his face
>> into something related to B5. [:O
>
> http://www.midwinter.com/b5/Usenet/jms95-03-usenet
>
> Do a text search for Tolkien and you'll find the post (though not the
> original question). He says it's not based on Tolkien. The rest of us
> say. "Sure, you betcha."

Thanks! But somehow, the Texas Ranger speculation has made it into the
Wikipedia somewhere. I'll root it out with the fanaticism of a Vorlon
smelling out planets contaminated by the Shadows.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quoted in Babylon 5 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> I think the Rangers in B5 may be due to influences from Tolkien. Some people
> have apparently suggested that the name is influenced by the Texas Rangers;

Not just the Texas Rangers. Rogers' Rangers, and the US Army Rangers
(what the Army of the UK calls "commandos") and others. It's a common
English word, though more common in America. (In 1944 or thereabouts, my
father was cadre for a training unit of 40ish men that called itself
"Rogers' Ruptured Rangers".)

> I disagree. God forbid that Chuck Norris ever pokes his face into something
> related to B5. [:O

Actually, during the delay between making the B5 pilot and starting the
series, as a favor to a friend, JMS spent some time working for "Walker:
Texas Ranger", and wrote the script for one episode.

--
John W. Kennedy
"I want everybody to be smart. As smart as they can be. A world of
ignorant people is too dangerous to live in."
-- Garson Kanin. "Born Yesterday"
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