The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls.

Zorag wrote:

> Bill O'Meally wrote:
>
>> It seems reasonable to
>> me that the Istari, with their Maiar spirits controlling their flesh,
>> would have had at least the same, if not greater resistance to injury as
>> the Elves.
>
> Along the general line of this discussion, how about the following quote
> from Gandalf, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli first encounter him in
> his White attire, mistake him for Saruman, and try to attack him:
>
> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>
> Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a greater
> resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new mandate did afterall
> allow for a greater display of power)? Or is this a general statement
> about the toughness of the Istari, and not related to his new color?

I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.

> And does he mean this literally, that if one of them had struck him that
> he would not actually be harmed? Or is it more of an arrogant boast,
> that none of them would be able to strike him?

Hmmm. I suppose if Eru sent him back to continue his task, he'd just send
him back again if one of the three had happened to accidentally kill him,
so I think it's probably safe to say none of them could _kill_ him
(permanently) but a dwarvish battle-axe has got to hurt!
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Zorag wrote:

>Gandalf, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli first encounter him in
>his White attire, mistake him for Saruman, and try to attack him:
>
>"Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."

I've taken this somewhat less than literally, myself, but in another
sense, perhaps more than literally.

Gandalf set Legolas' arrow on fire (not a good way to avoid being
shot, really, unless it burns up *very* quickly and completely), made
Gimli drop his axe, and I forget exactly what happened with Andúril:
"blazed with sudden fire" seems to be the exact quote. But I never
could buy the notion that Andúril (magic sword reforged by Elves!) was
physically incapable of harming Gandalf. Instead, I've always believed
-- without any evidence whatever -- that Andúril would instead simply
*refuse* to harm him. In more or less exactly unlike the way that
Durthang did *not* refuse to harm Turin, if you know what I mean
(deliberatly obfuscated, since I'm not sure what I mean, myself).

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
Old farmer MacPhee had a plough,
Two horses, nine pigs, and a cough
He often said "Though
I do not mind the snough
I'd rather see rain anyhough."
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

In message <news:30802739.n2blzEYffc@cedar.serverforest.com>
Derek Broughton <news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca> spoke these staves:
>
> Zorag wrote:
>>

LotR, book III, chapter 5 'The White Rider', Gandalf says:

>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt
>> me."
>>
>> Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a
>> greater resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new
>> mandate did afterall allow for a greater display of power)? Or
>> is this a general statement about the toughness of the Istari,
>> and not related to his new color?
>
> I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.

I'd agree to that. It is the same with Aragorn's realization that the
new Gandalf could 'could go whithersoever [eh] wished quicker than
[Aragorn]'.

Looking at Gandalf in /The Hobbit/ and in /The Fellowship of the
Ring/, there is no indication of any particular resistance to injury.

Gandalf is also described as moving incredibly fast -- 'too quick for
[Gimli]', who usually is quite adept at wielding his axe -- and
of course Aragorn's statement also suggests that Gandalf had become
incredibly fast (and Aragorn, at that point, believes that they are
all without horses, so Shadowfax doesn't enter into it).

>> And does he mean this literally, that if one of them had struck
>> him that he would not actually be harmed? Or is it more of an
>> arrogant boast, that none of them would be able to strike him?
>
> Hmmm. I suppose if Eru sent him back to continue his task, he'd
> just send him back again if one of the three had happened to
> accidentally kill him, so I think it's probably safe to say none
> of them could _kill_ him (permanently) but a dwarvish battle-axe
> has got to hurt!

I am not completely sure how to interpret his statement here either
-- the context seems to suggest rather that he would be able to
thwart the strike, just as he did shortly before making his
statement.

He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his
grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of
Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a
sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow
high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.
[LotR III,5 'The White Rider']

But that doesn't address what would have happened if he had simply
waited quietly for the blow. Gandalf's boast, however, echoes that of
the Witch-king later (I assume deliberately so), and thus may have
been as valid as the Witch-king's.

I'm not sure if Eru would have just sent him back again in case of an
accident. Letter #156 is a mine of information about Tolkien's
thoughts on this:

For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish
on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps
than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater
inner power than they; but also more, since it was a
humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the
Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the
only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron
successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing
over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving
up personal hope of success.
That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-
off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if
you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an
enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was
accepted, and enhanced, and returned.
[Letters #156, To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft), 1954]

The implication here, IMO, is that Gandalf would not have been
resurrected without the element of self-sacrifice (which incidentally
recalls, in addition to Christian allusions, Odin's self-sacrifice to
obtain magic powers) and, in particular, the element of deliberately
placing everything in Eru's hands -- of showing a complete trust in
Providence.

Tolkien doesn't say anything specific about the powers that we're
discussing here -- for defensive purposes, but he does go on to speak
about some of the changes:

Of course he remains similar in personality and
idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much
greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old
Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with
Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing
his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating
wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too
great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he
can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than
the release of St Peter from prison.
[ibid.]

We are explicitly told that his 'power [is] much greater', and that
before this transformation he would not have been able to deal with
Théoden as he did (awakening his courage to resistance, presumably).

My guess is that he was literal enough, though he didn't necessarily
mean that he could have stood still to receive the worst blow Gimli
could have dealt with his axe and yet be unharmed. Then again: all
the weapons, including Andúril, are subject to his powers (Gimli's
axe leaping from his hand, Andúril blazing and Legolas' arrow burning
to cinders in a moment), but that may simply mean that he would have
been able to prevent any weapon from actually striking him.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts
absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.
- Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887.
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Looking at Gandalf in /The Hobbit/ and in /The Fellowship of the
> Ring/, there is no indication of any particular resistance to injury.

In fact, his arm was in a sling after the Battle of Five Armies!
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

"Derek Broughton" <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:30802739.n2blzEYffc@cedar.serverforest.com...

[snip]

>> Along the general line of this discussion, how about the following quote
>> from Gandalf, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli first encounter him in
>> his White attire, mistake him for Saruman, and try to attack him:
>>
>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>>
>> Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a greater
>> resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new mandate did afterall
>> allow for a greater display of power)? Or is this a general statement
>> about the toughness of the Istari, and not related to his new color?
>
> I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.

Indeed, it wouldn't make any sense if he had to inform Aragorn and Legolas,
at least, about the old Gandalf being invulnerable. They would have known if
he had been.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

JimboCat wrote:
> Zorag wrote:
>
>> Gandalf, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli first encounter him in
>> his White attire, mistake him for Saruman, and try to attack him:
>>
>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>
> I've taken this somewhat less than literally, myself, but in another
> sense, perhaps more than literally.
>
> Gandalf set Legolas' arrow on fire (not a good way to avoid being
> shot, really, unless it burns up *very* quickly and completely), made
> Gimli drop his axe, and I forget exactly what happened with Andúril:
> "blazed with sudden fire" seems to be the exact quote. But I never
> could buy the notion that Andúril (magic sword reforged by Elves!) was
> physically incapable of harming Gandalf. Instead, I've always believed
> -- without any evidence whatever -- that Andúril would instead simply
> *refuse* to harm him. In more or less exactly unlike the way that
> Durthang did *not* refuse to harm Turin, if you know what I mean
> (deliberatly obfuscated, since I'm not sure what I mean, myself).
>
Hmmm...

That seems a bit muddled to me. I've never thought that Tolkien meant
"And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy
blood gladly... I will slay thee swiftly'" (Silmarillion, Of Turin
Turambar) to be taken literally. Turin was alone, so no-one heard him
talk to Gurthang, not the sword answer back. I always felt this was just
a bit of poetic license, rather than a factual account. I therefore
don't think weapons would refuse to kill (or else would not Gurthang had
saved any number of the victims of Turin's rage?). However, I have
always thought that the line "Indeed my friends, none of you have any
weapon that could hurt me" was supposed to have "now" at the end of it -
in fact, I had to check that it *didn't*!

I think it's interesting to look at two incidents in LotR. At Weathertop
Gandalf encounters all nine of the Nazgul, who attack him. When he flees
the next day, he is pursued by four of the nine, so clearly they think
that these four can comfortably take on and defeat Gandalf the Grey.

Jumping forward to RotK, when the Osgiliath rearguard falls back to
Minas Tirith Gandalf the White rides out to help them:

"...one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax
bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his
upraised hand.
"The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come
to challenge the white fire of his foe." (RotK, The Siege of Gondor)

Clearly there is a significant difference between the two Gandalfs, and
that the Nazgul can sense it and are, if not afraid then at least wary.
I think the Witch King felt that he would either need all Nine of the
the Nazgul together to defeat Gandalf, or that he himself must do it (I
get the impression that he wasn't present during the harrying of the
rearguard, although it is possible that he was, but had other plans),
and so they aren't willing to confront him. It's a little surprising
that they don't take the opportunity to deal with their most dangerous
foe while he is isolated (if only briefly).

None of this directly addresses the issue, but I think it implies that
Gandalf the White knows that the Nagul are his only threat: even at the
battle outside the Black Gate Gandalf appears to do very little fighting
- I can hardly believe it's cowardice, so presumably he's saving his
strength for the final showdown.

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Troels Forchhammer kirjoitti:
> In message <news:30802739.n2blzEYffc@cedar.serverforest.com>
> Derek Broughton <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca> spoke these staves:
>
>>Zorag wrote:
>>
>
> LotR, book III, chapter 5 'The White Rider', Gandalf says:
>
>
>>>"Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt
>>>me."
>>>
>>>Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a
>>>greater resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new
>>>mandate did afterall allow for a greater display of power)? Or
>>>is this a general statement about the toughness of the Istari,
>>>and not related to his new color?
>>
>>I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.
>
>
> I'd agree to that. It is the same with Aragorn's realization that the
> new Gandalf could 'could go whithersoever [eh] wished quicker than
> [Aragorn]'.
>
> Looking at Gandalf in /The Hobbit/ and in /The Fellowship of the
> Ring/, there is no indication of any particular resistance to injury.
>
> Gandalf is also described as moving incredibly fast -- 'too quick for
> [Gimli]', who usually is quite adept at wielding his axe -- and
> of course Aragorn's statement also suggests that Gandalf had become
> incredibly fast (and Aragorn, at that point, believes that they are
> all without horses, so Shadowfax doesn't enter into it).

The answer is both simple and obvious. There is only one ability that
can explain both of these new talents of Gandalf being mentioned here.
Gandalf cannot be hurt by weapons and he can go to places quicker then
others, because of his new ability to *teleport* instantly anywhere he
wishes. In the book this is mentioned only passingly, when Theoden
marvels at how much Gandalf has been able to achieve in so short time,
he comments "with the help of Shadowfax – and others". This is a
reference to his new ability of teleportation - a Gift from Eru.

And anyone who DARES to ask why didn't Gandalf then teleport to Frodo
and then to Cracks of Doom, etc. will get an automatic F ;-]

Morambar

-"Tolkien is the best medicine"
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Derek Broughton wrote:

> Zorag wrote:
>
>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>>
>> Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a greater
>> resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new mandate did afterall
>> allow for a greater display of power)? Or is this a general statement
>> about the toughness of the Istari, and not related to his new color?
>
> I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.

That's what I was inclined to think at first, but then consider that
Gandalf the Grey did indeed fight and defeat a Balrog. This is no mean
task--falling down an abyss whose depth even the dwarves could not
measure, being burned by Balrog flames, and then engaging in a battle
that destroyed a mountaintop. I daresay most elves would not have
survived this. Even after such an ordeal, Galadriel seems to be
skeptical about his reported death, since she sent Gwaihir to look for
him. Of course, it is also possible that she could sense that he was
out there, so she knew he hadn't died--even though she says she cannot
see him from afar and that "a grey mist is about him, and the ways of
his feet and of his mind are hidden from me," I am not sure whether this
means she can't see anything about him at all, or whether she just has
some vague misty sense of him but cannot pinpoint anything.

The new Gandalf does seem more confident than the old Gandalf, but,
still, the old Gandalf was really quite confident in himself. Nosing
around Sauron's dungeons in Dol Guldur, taking on Nazgul, fighting a
Balrog. He was pretty tough.


Zorag.
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Somehow this response only went to RABT, so I'll send it again to both
groups, since I've been following things more closely in AFT.

Derek Broughton wrote:

> Zorag wrote:
>
>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>>
>> Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a greater
>> resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new mandate did
>> afterall allow for a greater display of power)? Or is this a general
>> statement about the toughness of the Istari, and not related to his
>> new color?
>
> I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.

That's what I was inclined to think at first, but then consider that
Gandalf the Grey did indeed fight and defeat a Balrog. This is no mean
task--falling down an abyss whose depth even the dwarves could not
measure, being burned by Balrog flames, and then engaging in a battle
that destroyed a mountaintop. I daresay most elves would not have
survived this. Even after such an ordeal, Galadriel seems to be
skeptical about his reported death, since she sent Gwaihir to look for
him. Of course, it is also possible that she could sense that he was
out there, so she knew he hadn't died--even though she says she cannot
see him from afar and that "a grey mist is about him, and the ways of
his feet and of his mind are hidden from me," I am not sure whether this
means she can't see anything about him at all, or whether she just has
some vague misty sense of him but cannot pinpoint anything.

The new Gandalf does seem more confident than the old Gandalf, but,
still, the old Gandalf was really quite confident in himself. Nosing
around Sauron's dungeons in Dol Guldur, taking on Nazgul, fighting a
Balrog. He was pretty tough.


Zorag.
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
> news:30802739.n2blzEYffc@cedar.serverforest.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Along the general line of this discussion, how about the following quote
>>> from Gandalf, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli first encounter him in
>>> his White attire, mistake him for Saruman, and try to attack him:
>>>
>>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>>>
>>> Does this mean that the more exalted Gandalf the White has a greater
>>> resistance to injury than Gandalf the Grey (his new mandate did afterall
>>> allow for a greater display of power)? Or is this a general statement
>>> about the toughness of the Istari, and not related to his new color?
>
>> I'm certain that's the new Gandalf.
>
> Indeed, it wouldn't make any sense if he had to inform Aragorn and Legolas,
> at least, about the old Gandalf being invulnerable. They would have known if
> he had been.

I am inclined to agree with you, but I wonder, if the old Gandalf was
invulnerable, would they actually have known? They were forbidden to
display their power and had to appear as old men, which would include an
appearance of frailty. I doubt that he would have told them that he
could take more punishment than most people--he was always very
tight-lipped about things that other people did not need to know. In
contrast, in this whole discourse the new Gandalf is remarkably open
with them.

But I think I do agree that the statement is probably pertaining
specifically to Gandalf the White.


Zorag
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Jamie Armstrong wrote:

> I think it's interesting to look at two incidents in LotR. At Weathertop
> Gandalf encounters all nine of the Nazgul, who attack him. When he flees
> the next day, he is pursued by four of the nine, so clearly they think
> that these four can comfortably take on and defeat Gandalf the Grey.

Does this mean that the Nazgul think that four can actually defeat
Gandalf the Grey, or does it mean that they were principally interested
in the ring, and Gandalf did not have the ring, so they did not focus on
him, although he seemed important enough to warrant them at least keep
tabs on him, and hopefully keep him away from the ringbearer?


Zorag
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> In message <news:30802739.n2blzEYffc@cedar.serverforest.com>
> Derek Broughton <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca> spoke these staves:
>> Zorag wrote:

> Looking at Gandalf in /The Hobbit/ and in /The Fellowship of the
> Ring/, there is no indication of any particular resistance to injury.

Except in the fight with the Balrog, where we see him doing things that
would, presumably, injure other people (yes, he does die at the end, but
only after surviving a long fall, extensive burns, and a long fight)

>>> And does he mean this literally, that if one of them had struck
>>> him that he would not actually be harmed? Or is it more of an
>>> arrogant boast, that none of them would be able to strike him?
>> Hmmm. I suppose if Eru sent him back to continue his task, he'd
>> just send him back again if one of the three had happened to
>> accidentally kill him, so I think it's probably safe to say none
>> of them could _kill_ him (permanently) but a dwarvish battle-axe
>> has got to hurt!
>
> I am not completely sure how to interpret his statement here either
> -- the context seems to suggest rather that he would be able to
> thwart the strike, just as he did shortly before making his
> statement.
>
> He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his
> grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of
> Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a
> sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow
> high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.
> [LotR III,5 'The White Rider']
>
> But that doesn't address what would have happened if he had simply
> waited quietly for the blow.

Or if they had surprised him and, say, Legolas had an arrow in the air
before he was even aware of it. His perceptions have certainly been
heightened, but is the force that strong with him?

Gandalf (both White and Grey) participated in several battles wearing no
armor, and seemed to be fine. This included leading a charge into
battle at Helm's Deep. Did he use the same kind of magic to stop blows
then? Or was it a more general, use the force kind of thing? Or did he
just get lucky (the heroes do tend to be quite lucky)? It does seem
more likely to be some means of avoiding injury than a supernatural
ability to shrug off damage--an image of Gandalf going around with
arrows and swords sticking into him like a pincushion just seems all wrong.


Zorag
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls. 

"Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.RemoveThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fn5lsm$nn7$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...
> JimboCat wrote:
>> Zorag wrote:
>>
>>> Gandalf, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli first encounter him in
>>> his White attire, mistake him for Saruman, and try to attack him:
>>>
>>> "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
>>
>> I've taken this somewhat less than literally, myself, but in another
>> sense, perhaps more than literally.
>>
>> Gandalf set Legolas' arrow on fire (not a good way to avoid being
>> shot, really, unless it burns up *very* quickly and completely), made
>> Gimli drop his axe, and I forget exactly what happened with Andúril:
>> "blazed with sudden fire" seems to be the exact quote. But I never
>> could buy the notion that Andúril (magic sword reforged by Elves!) was
>> physically incapable of harming Gandalf. Instead, I've always believed
>> -- without any evidence whatever -- that Andúril would instead simply
>> *refuse* to harm him. In more or less exactly unlike the way that
>> Durthang did *not* refuse to harm Turin, if you know what I mean
>> (deliberatly obfuscated, since I'm not sure what I mean, myself).
>>
> Hmmm...
>
> That seems a bit muddled to me. I've never thought that Tolkien meant "And
> from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood
> gladly... I will slay thee swiftly'" (Silmarillion, Of Turin Turambar) to
> be taken literally. Turin was alone, so no-one heard him talk to Gurthang,
> not the sword answer back. I always felt this was just a bit of poetic
> license, rather than a factual account. I therefore don't think weapons
> would refuse to kill (or else would not Gurthang had saved any number of
> the victims of Turin's rage?). However, I have always thought that the
> line "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me"
> was supposed to have "now" at the end of it - in fact, I had to check that
> it *didn't*!
>
> I think it's interesting to look at two incidents in LotR. At Weathertop
> Gandalf encounters all nine of the Nazgul, who attack him. When he flees
> the next day, he is pursued by four of the nine, so clearly they think
> that these four can comfortably take on and defeat Gandalf the Grey.
>

And yet, Gandalf the Grey was powerful enough to survive the fall into the
abyss at Moria, the fire surrounding the Balrog, a plunge into icy waters
(and, I have always assumed, a very prolonged underwater swim), a climb up
countless stairs, AND combat against the Balrog. All the while, he must
have been looking to see if the Balrog had wings or not Granted, Gandalf
died at the end of the fight, but he still prevailed over his foe. Maybe I
am off base here, but in a fight between the Balrog and the Nine Nazgul, I
think the Balrog would be the betting man's choice. Gandalf the Gray was
obviously no slouch.


> Jumping forward to RotK, when the Osgiliath rearguard falls back to Minas
> Tirith Gandalf the White rides out to help them:
>
> "...one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax
> bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised
> hand.
> "The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come
> to challenge the white fire of his foe." (RotK, The Siege of Gondor)
>
> Clearly there is a significant difference between the two Gandalfs, and
> that the Nazgul can sense it and are, if not afraid then at least wary.

I see it slightly differently, based on Gandalf's defeat of the
Balrog...Gandalf the White was, perhaps, more powerful than the Grey, but
more importantly the strictures against his *use* of his power were, IMHO,
lessened. Whereas Gandalf the Grey could use all his might to defeat a
Balrog (a fellow maiar), Gandalf the White could use his power against
lesser foes, such as the Nazgul. Also, perhaps, Gandalf was refreshed after
a brief stay in Valinor.


> I think the Witch King felt that he would either need all Nine of the the
> Nazgul together to defeat Gandalf, or that he himself must do it (I get
> the impression that he wasn't present during the harrying of the
> rearguard, although it is possible that he was, but had other plans), and
> so they aren't willing to confront him. It's a little surprising that they
> don't take the opportunity to deal with their most dangerous foe while he
> is isolated (if only briefly).

I don't see teh witchking being a threat to Gandalf, personally. Also, I
view the nazgul as much more cowardly than any of the "good guys." The
witchking would hesitate to fight Gandalf out of fear, whereas Gandalf would
be brave enough to engage the Witchking.

>
> None of this directly addresses the issue, but I think it implies that
> Gandalf the White knows that the Nagul are his only threat: even at the
> battle outside the Black Gate Gandalf appears to do very little fighting -
> I can hardly believe it's cowardice, so presumably he's saving his
> strength for the final showdown.
>

He knew that military might could not defeat Sauron, his only hope was to
prolong the battle long enough for Frodo to destroy the ring. Gandalf
entering the fight would serve as a way of prolonging the fight only.
Gandalf knew the ruse had worked and Frodo had as clear a shot at Mt Doom as
possible, so the battle itself was perhaps to save Minas Tirith? By that I
mean, assuming the battle before the black gate was lost, the Nazgul would
scour the battlefield for the ring...not finding it, Sauron would likely
assume that one of his foes had it at Minas Tirith (Denethor perhaps, if
Sauron did not know of his demise) and had sent the small army to the black
gate to buy time in figuring out how to utilize the ring best. Sauron would
likely march at wull strength and speed to Minas Tirith to destroy the
would-be ringlord.

> Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: The Istari were susceptible to mortal pitfalls.