Thrint Question

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
On 2008-01-08, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>
> Aaron Denney wrote:
>
>> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
>> On 2008-01-07, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Sea Wasp wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
>> >> > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
>> >> > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
>> >> > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
>> >> > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>> >>
>> >> The Thrintun were powerful.
>> >>
>> >> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape. In other
>> >> words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to be very bright.
>> >
>> > I defy any ape to operate a space ship!
>>
>> You do know that humans are apes, right?
>
> Humans are related to apes, but aren't apes.

That is a commonly held view by those insecure enough to need to
seperate themselves from the rest of the apes.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape :

Apes are the members of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, which
includes humans. Under the current classification system there are two
families of hominoids:

* the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 13 species of
gibbons, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively
known as the "lesser apes"
* the family Hominidae consisting of orangutans, gorillas,
chimpanzees, and humans,[1][2] collectively known as the
"great apes".

Any phylogenetic grouping containing both gibbons and chimps contains
humans. Actually, any phylogenetic grouping containing both orangutans and
gorillas contains chimps and humans.

--
Aaron Denney
-><-
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Aaron Denney wrote:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
> On 2008-01-08, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Aaron Denney wrote:
> >
> >> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
> >> On 2008-01-07, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Sea Wasp wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >> > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> >> >> > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> >> >> > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> >> >> > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> >> >> > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
> >> >>
> >> >> The Thrintun were powerful.
> >> >>
> >> >> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape. In other
> >> >> words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to be very bright.
> >> >
> >> > I defy any ape to operate a space ship!
> >>
> >> You do know that humans are apes, right?
> >
> > Humans are related to apes, but aren't apes.
>
> That is a commonly held view by those insecure enough to need to
> seperate themselves from the rest of the apes.
>
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape :
>
> Apes are the members of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, which
> includes humans. Under the current classification system there are two
> families of hominoids:
>
> * the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 13 species of
> gibbons, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively
> known as the "lesser apes"
> * the family Hominidae consisting of orangutans, gorillas,
> chimpanzees, and humans,[1][2] collectively known as the
> "great apes".
>
> Any phylogenetic grouping containing both gibbons and chimps contains
> humans. Actually, any phylogenetic grouping containing both orangutans and
> gorillas contains chimps and humans.

I had thought that apes were a specific species within the primate grouping.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> Aaron Denney wrote:
....
>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape :
>>
>> Apes are the members of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, which
>> includes humans. Under the current classification system there are two
>> families of hominoids:
>>
>> * the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 13 species of
>> gibbons, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively
>> known as the "lesser apes"
>> * the family Hominidae consisting of orangutans, gorillas,
>> chimpanzees, and humans,[1][2] collectively known as the
>> "great apes".
>>
>> Any phylogenetic grouping containing both gibbons and chimps contains
>> humans. Actually, any phylogenetic grouping containing both orangutans and
>> gorillas contains chimps and humans.
>
> I had thought that apes were a specific species within the primate grouping.

So, which of the species mentioned in the wikipedia article did you
think "apes" referred to? You use the past tense - do you now accept
that the Wikipedia article correctly describes the relationship between
humans and the other species of Hominoidea?
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Tim Bruening wrote:

> Erik Max Francis wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>
>>> I got the impression in "World of P'Tavvs" that even the Thrintun were ordered to commit
>>> suicide!
>> Then you read really poorly.
>
> I remember two versions: One in which the Thrint committed suicide also, and another in which
> they survived Suicide Night but couldn't live without their slaves.

And where do you "remember" the first version from?

--
Erik Max Francis && max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
A man's life is what his thoughts make it.
-- Marcus Aurelius
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

In article <Xns9A1EB9B8DAAA3genewardsmithsbcglob.TakeThisOut@207.115.33.102>, Gene
Ward Smith wrote:
> None of this leads to a Gaussian distribution.
>
*A priori* , no.
But the *practice* of the IQ scale is a Gaussian of mean 100 and
S.D. 15 . Similarly, the practice of distance measurement is that one
metre is 1/299,792,458 of a light-second and the practice of viscosity
measurement in the drilling industry is to measure the time taken for a
quarter-gallon (I'm not sure if it's a US gallon or an Imperial gallon)
of fluid to drain through an orifice of a certain size from a funnel of
certain dimensions.
Most natural and biological phenomena end up producing a
Gaussian distribution somewhere, so using such a distribution at this
stage of our lack of understanding of intelligence, psychology, and
consciousness is not unreasonable and is unlikely in itself to be an
obstacle to further progress.
The assumption of "intelligence" following a Gaussian
distribution has some support from things like the distribution of
examination scores applied to large numbers of participants . But it
does depend on the more contentious assertion that examination scores
actually measure that slippery and ill-defined concept of
"intelligence".

--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:23 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only
does it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the
pterosaur."
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

In article <47833510.F980DEA2.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening wrote:
> > You do know that humans are apes, right?
>
> Humans are related to apes, but aren't apes.
>
Yes we are, by any meaningful definition of "human", "ape" and
"are".

--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:37 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only
does it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the
pterosaur."
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

In article <4783345C.D5146CE7 RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening wrote:
> But if only the Tnuctipun died, couldn't the other slaves tide the Thrint
> over until the Thrint can find new slaves as smart as the Tnuctipun?
>
Possibly a Thrint philosopher "proved" to the rest of the Thrint
(yes, I know that phrase doesn't hang together very well for humans ;
perhaps Thrint have different philosophies and standards of proof. They're
not human after all.) that any species bright enough to replace the
Tnuctipun would also be bright enough to understand that they are slaves
and so to eventually rebel. (q.v. Animal Farm). So the choice for the
Thrint came down to "life with stupid slaves" or "death".
How would a Roman aristocrat respond to the choice?

--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:39 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only does
it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the pterosaur."
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Aidan Karley <name1_name2.DeleteThis@email.provider.invalid> writes:

> In article <47833510.F980DEA2.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening wrote:
>> > You do know that humans are apes, right?
>>
>> Humans are related to apes, but aren't apes.
>>
> Yes we are, by any meaningful definition of "human", "ape" and
> "are".

At least when the word "related" comes into play. In many topics and
discussion it makes perfect sense to treat "apes" and "humans" as
different. However, not in statements like "humans are related to
aps, but aren't apes".
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Tim Bruening wrote:
> Aaron Denney wrote:
>
>> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
>> On 2008-01-07, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Sea Wasp wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>> To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a
>>>>> super duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the
>>>>> galaxy to commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the
>>>>> Thrint apply the suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All
>>>>> Tnuctipun commit suicide at once. All other slaves take a one
>>>>> day nap").
>>>>
>>>> The Thrintun were powerful.
>>>>
>>>> They were also only slightly brighter than the average
>>>> ape. In other words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't
>>>> HAVE to be very bright.
>>>
>>> I defy any ape to operate a space ship!
>>
>> You do know that humans are apes, right?
>
> Humans are related to apes, but aren't apes.

We're prime-apes.

--
"Reading by the light of a lost Christmas day
It begins...."
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Tim Bruening wrote:
> Sea Wasp wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>> To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
>>> duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy
>>> to commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint
>>> apply the suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun
>>> commit suicide at once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>>
>> The Thrintun were powerful.
>>
>> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape.
>> In other words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to
>> be very bright.
>
> I defy any average (non-human) ape to operate a space ship!

Define "operate".

(I'm remembering various early orbital missions testing whether or not
humans could survive by sending chimps up and having them perform tasks of
varying degrees of complexity.)

--
"Reading by the light of a lost Christmas day
It begins...."
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

tphile wrote:

> On Jan 7, 3:50 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > Sea Wasp wrote:
> > > Tim Bruening wrote:
> > > > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> > > > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> > > > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> > > > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> > > > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
> >
> > > The Thrintun were powerful.
> >
> > > They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape. In other
> > > words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to be very bright.
> >
> > I defy any ape to operate a space ship!
>
> You lose, they did at NASA
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkeys_in_space

Several monkeys were indeed launched into space, but I saw no indication in the
article that they actually OPERATED the space craft they rode on.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

James Gassaway wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > Sea Wasp wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>> To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> >>> duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy
> >>> to commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint
> >>> apply the suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun
> >>> commit suicide at once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
> >>
> >> The Thrintun were powerful.
> >>
> >> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape.
> >> In other words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to
> >> be very bright.
> >
> > I defy any average (non-human) ape to operate a space ship!
>
> Define "operate".
>
> (I'm remembering various early orbital missions testing whether or not
> humans could survive by sending chimps up and having them perform tasks of
> varying degrees of complexity.)

I'm thinking in terms of the ape being able to cause the spaceship to take
off, fly to its destination, and land. I also want the ape to be able to
choose the spaceship's destination and set its course.

What tasks did the space chimps perform?
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Aidan Karley wrote:

> In article <4783345C.D5146CE7.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening wrote:
> > But if only the Tnuctipun died, couldn't the other slaves tide the Thrint
> > over until the Thrint can find new slaves as smart as the Tnuctipun?
> >
> Possibly a Thrint philosopher "proved" to the rest of the Thrint
> (yes, I know that phrase doesn't hang together very well for humans ;
> perhaps Thrint have different philosophies and standards of proof. They're
> not human after all.) that any species bright enough to replace the
> Tnuctipun would also be bright enough to understand that they are slaves
> and so to eventually rebel. (q.v. Animal Farm). So the choice for the
> Thrint came down to "life with stupid slaves" or "death".

I expect that the Thrint would have resolved to mentally control the
replacement slaves more closely than they controlled the Tnuctipun, making
rebellion less likely.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question