blowing a horn?

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>
>> David Trimboli wrote:
>>> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>>>
>>>> "There suddenly upon a ridge appearead a rider, clad in white, shining
>>>> in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind
>>>> him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot..."
>>>> (TTT, Helm's Deep)
>>> Wait, it wasn't Gandalf leading Eomer down steep mountainsides that
>>> should have made their horses tumble onto their faces?!?
>> Not only that: the Uruks just have to hold position and keep their pikes
>> pointed at the cavalry to deal with 'Eomer'
>
> I don't have a problem with the horses riding down the slope - they can do
> that, though I would expect a fair amount of injury and loss of life, but I
> remember being appalled at the way the defenders just seemed to raise their
> pikes to let the horses through. Apparently, _they_ never got the sort of
> education about medieval European wars that Tolkien did...

Of course, one thing Jackson did get right was the only way you can get
a horse to charge into a wall of pikes is to surround it with *lots* of
other horses and get them to all gallop down a very steep hill together.

Jamie
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Jamie Armstrong wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>>
>>> David Trimboli wrote:
>>>> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "There suddenly upon a ridge appearead a rider, clad in white, shining
>>>>> in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind
>>>>> him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot..."
>>>>> (TTT, Helm's Deep)
>>>> Wait, it wasn't Gandalf leading Eomer down steep mountainsides that
>>>> should have made their horses tumble onto their faces?!?
>>> Not only that: the Uruks just have to hold position and keep their pikes
>>> pointed at the cavalry to deal with 'Eomer'
>>
>> I don't have a problem with the horses riding down the slope - they can
>> do that, though I would expect a fair amount of injury and loss of life,
>> but I remember being appalled at the way the defenders just seemed to
>> raise their
>> pikes to let the horses through. Apparently, _they_ never got the sort
>> of education about medieval European wars that Tolkien did...
>
> Of course, one thing Jackson did get right was the only way you can get
> a horse to charge into a wall of pikes is to surround it with *lots* of
> other horses and get them to all gallop down a very steep hill together.

I suppose I just remembered reading about Crecy & Agincourt where what
we usually remember is the English archery, but equally important was the
fact that the archers are defended by pike walls - the French were so
anxious to stop the archers that they'd charge the pikes, and the horses
being smarter than the average knight would stop dead (well, actually live)
tossing large metal knights straight onto the pikes. I never thought of
horses as being very smart, but I was always impressed by how they knew
that charging pikes was dangerous.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:18:36 -0300, Derek Broughton
<news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Trimboli wrote:
>>>>> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "There suddenly upon a ridge appearead a rider, clad in white, shining
>>>>>> in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind
>>>>>> him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot..."
>>>>>> (TTT, Helm's Deep)
>>>>> Wait, it wasn't Gandalf leading Eomer down steep mountainsides that
>>>>> should have made their horses tumble onto their faces?!?
>>>> Not only that: the Uruks just have to hold position and keep their pikes
>>>> pointed at the cavalry to deal with 'Eomer'
>>>
>>> I don't have a problem with the horses riding down the slope - they can
>>> do that, though I would expect a fair amount of injury and loss of life,
>>> but I remember being appalled at the way the defenders just seemed to
>>> raise their
>>> pikes to let the horses through. Apparently, _they_ never got the sort
>>> of education about medieval European wars that Tolkien did...
>>
>> Of course, one thing Jackson did get right was the only way you can get
>> a horse to charge into a wall of pikes is to surround it with *lots* of
>> other horses and get them to all gallop down a very steep hill together.
>
>I suppose I just remembered reading about Crecy & Agincourt where what
>we usually remember is the English archery, but equally important was the
>fact that the archers are defended by pike walls - the French were so
>anxious to stop the archers that they'd charge the pikes, and the horses
>being smarter than the average knight would stop dead (well, actually live)
>tossing large metal knights straight onto the pikes. I never thought of
>horses as being very smart, but I was always impressed by how they knew
>that charging pikes was dangerous.

So, /Braveheart/ got it right? Even if the battle ("Stirling") shown
was not the historical battle ("Stirling Bridge")?

I also recall reading, somewhere, the assertion that one reason the
British cavalry (at Waterloo, specifically) defeated the French
cavalry was because the French were riding geldings/young stallions
and the British were riding mares -- and young male horses simply will
not stand up to enraged females! (The mares were plenty enraged after
all that charging about!)
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
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"Paul S. Person" <psperson RemoveThis @ix.netscom.com.invalid> skrev i meddelelsen
news:7oeou3tts6tlf8urg48nmu392v6c42vc4e@4ax.com...

> I also recall reading, somewhere, the assertion that one reason the
> British cavalry (at Waterloo, specifically) defeated the French
> cavalry was because the French were riding geldings/young stallions
> and the British were riding mares -- and young male horses simply will
> not stand up to enraged females! (The mares were plenty enraged after
> all that charging about!)

So horses have that in common with people then.

Corbeau.
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Paul S. Person wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:18:36 -0300, Derek Broughton
> <news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>>I suppose I just remembered reading about Crecy & Agincourt where
>>what we usually remember is the English archery, but equally important was
>>the fact that the archers are defended by pike walls - the French were so
>>anxious to stop the archers that they'd charge the pikes, and the horses
>>being smarter than the average knight would stop dead (well, actually
>>live)
>>tossing large metal knights straight onto the pikes. I never thought of
>>horses as being very smart, but I was always impressed by how they knew
>>that charging pikes was dangerous.
>
> So, /Braveheart/ got it right? Even if the battle ("Stirling") shown
> was not the historical battle ("Stirling Bridge")?

I suspect not - though I'm not quite certain. I don't think they were using
pike walls.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:49:46 -0300, Derek Broughton
<news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote:

>Paul S. Person wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:18:36 -0300, Derek Broughton
>> <news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>I suppose I just remembered reading about Crecy & Agincourt where
>>>what we usually remember is the English archery, but equally important was
>>>the fact that the archers are defended by pike walls - the French were so
>>>anxious to stop the archers that they'd charge the pikes, and the horses
>>>being smarter than the average knight would stop dead (well, actually
>>>live)
>>>tossing large metal knights straight onto the pikes. I never thought of
>>>horses as being very smart, but I was always impressed by how they knew
>>>that charging pikes was dangerous.
>>
>> So, /Braveheart/ got it right? Even if the battle ("Stirling") shown
>> was not the historical battle ("Stirling Bridge")?
>
>I suspect not - though I'm not quite certain. I don't think they were using
>pike walls.

I wasn't clear enough. I am saying /Braveheart/ was correct in showing
that (something like a if not actually a) pike wall would stop a heavy
cavalry charge. (The "pikes" were Really Long Pointed Sticks, which
you may or may not consider to be "pikes").

The actual battle, of course, did not involve cavalry charges or
impromptu pike walls. It was a classic defeated-in-detail-from-ambush
battle (for the English). Well, IIRC anyway.
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: blowing a horn? 

Paul S. Person wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:49:46 -0300, Derek Broughton
> <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> So, /Braveheart/ got it right? Even if the battle ("Stirling") shown
>>> was not the historical battle ("Stirling Bridge")?
>>
>>I suspect not - though I'm not quite certain. I don't think they were
>>using pike walls.
>
> I wasn't clear enough. I am saying /Braveheart/ was correct in showing
> that (something like a if not actually a) pike wall would stop a heavy
> cavalry charge.

LOL. In that case, sure, they got it right!

> (The "pikes" were Really Long Pointed Sticks, which
> you may or may not consider to be "pikes").

I'm not a military historian, but iirc a Pike is, in fact, any of a large
variety of long pointed sticks.

> The actual battle, of course, did not involve cavalry charges or
> impromptu pike walls. It was a classic defeated-in-detail-from-ambush
> battle (for the English). Well, IIRC anyway.

Ah. Which makes complete sense.
--
derek
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On Mar 28, 1:38 pm, Paul S. Person <psper....DeleteThis@ix.netscom.com.invalid>
wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:49:46 -0300, Derek Broughton
>
> <n....DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> >Paul S. Person wrote:
>
> >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:18:36 -0300, Derek Broughton
> >> <n....DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
> >>>I suppose  I just remembered reading about Crecy & Agincourt where
> >>>what we usually remember is the English archery, but equally important was
> >>>the fact that the archers are defended by pike walls - the French were so
> >>>anxious to stop the archers that they'd charge the pikes, and the horses
> >>>being smarter than the average knight would stop dead (well, actually
> >>>live)
> >>>tossing large metal knights straight onto the pikes.  I never thought of
> >>>horses as being very smart, but I was always impressed by how they knew
> >>>that charging pikes was dangerous.
>
> >> So, /Braveheart/ got it right? Even if the battle ("Stirling") shown
> >> was not the historical battle ("Stirling Bridge")?
>
> >I suspect not - though I'm not quite certain.  I don't think they were using
> >pike walls.
>
> I wasn't clear enough. I am saying /Braveheart/ was correct in showing
> that (something like a if not actually a) pike wall would stop a heavy
> cavalry charge. (The "pikes" were Really Long Pointed Sticks, which
> you may or may not consider to be "pikes").
>
> The actual battle, of course, did not involve cavalry charges or
> impromptu pike walls. It was a classic defeated-in-detail-from-ambush
> battle (for the English). Well, IIRC anyway.

It *did* involve pike-walls, or more precisely pike-hedgehogs, but
hardly impromptu ones - that's just Hollywood, they can't stand the
idea that military expertise and professionalism might be good for
anything, so all battles have to be clever amateur good guys using
silly, obvious gimmicks that all those dense military types never
thought of. Like, um, burning stuff. And hiding.

(Another Hollywood pet peeve: movies in which ambushes universally end
when the ambushers jump out from behind cover without having fired a
shot and get the drop on the ambushees, who immediately surrender.)

Falkirk was fought with schiltrons too, and the reason the Scots lost
wasn't betrayal, it was inability to coordinate their various arms
while the English were able to do so with great effect (as at Crecy
and Agincourt). Bruce was eventually able too remedy this deficiency
and turn the tables on the English.

The trouble with this scene is the idea of Orcs in pike-walls. Pike-
walls take strict discipline, regular drill, and confidence in the
fortitude and determination of everyone else in the unit, three things
it's impossible to imagine Orcs having. It was all their leaders could
do to make them show up for the fight and kill the enemy rather than
each other - and even that only with constant threats, beatings, and
summary executions. There's no way an army like that could fight in
the sort of cohesive formation that makes it possible for infantry to
stand up to a cavalry charge.

For that matter Tolkien's Elves don't seem to fight that way either,
nor does anyone else other than the Numenoreans - which is presumably
one reason the latter were so formidable. (And perhaps, arguably, the
Hobbits, although that was on a much smaller scale.) Everyone else
fights like Homeric heroes, with individual duels between champions
deciding the battle and punctuating intervals of their slaughtering
spear-carriers en masse, or as guerrillas, sticking to stealth,
ambush, and raiding. That's partly just his style, but I think he was
definitely trying to depict heroic-age, pre-military societies, Orcs
included.


- Bruce (not Robert)
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"Bruce Tucker" <disintegration.RemoveThis@embarqmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:ccfad082-ab9e-41e6-83e6-10830a7003dd@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

[snip].

>The trouble with this scene is the idea of Orcs in pike-walls. Pike-
walls take strict discipline, regular drill, and confidence in the
fortitude and determination of everyone else in the unit, three things
it's impossible to imagine Orcs having. It was all their leaders could
do to make them show up for the fight and kill the enemy rather than
each other - and even that only with constant threats, beatings, and
summary executions. There's no way an army like that could fight in
the sort of cohesive formation that makes it possible for infantry to
stand up to a cavalry charge.

I agree. Despite Uglúk's bragging, Orcs clearly never had a chance to win
any battle except by sheer force of numbers. I bet they were whipped into
battle, as happened to European soldiers as late as the early 19th century.
In fact, Tolkien mentions something similar about the Orcs being assmbled
for the fight at Morannon. There were Orc sergeants keeping them in
formation by means of whips. I bet the whips were used during battles as
well. Isn't there some mention of that? I just can't recall right now.
On the other hand, the Rohirrim seem to have had a lot of drill in cavalry
tactics. Just think of the formation they make around Aragorn, Gimli and
Legolas.

Öjevind
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