How evil is a classical empire?

On Nov 21, 12:53 am, T Guy <Tim.Bate... DeleteThis @redbridge.gov.uk> wrote:
> (darklensman):
>
> > > So incorperation into a new galactic empire will bring more freedome
> > > to people in China who live is what is a surprisingly free empire by
> > > previous standards (oh yes it is you just go there) and not for
> > > example unprecidented levels of slavery and oppression
>
> (bernardZ<Berna... DeleteThis @nospam.com>):
>
> > I have been to China and I can assure you you aint a democracy.
>
> (T Guy):
>
> I can equally assure you that the definition of 'democracy' is not 'a
> surprisingly free empire by previous standards.'
>
> T G

I am not talking of democracy as much as freedom.

The early Islamic empire was just as non-democratic in Egypt as was
the Christian Byzantine Empire they defeated but even the Christians
welcomed the Islamic conquerors as they gave their subjects more
freedom.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 21, 5:59 am, David Johnston <da... RemoveThis @block.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:42:04 +1100,bernardZ<Berna... RemoveThis @nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
> >> So incorperation into a new galactic empire will bring more freedome
> >> to people in China who live is what is a surprisingly free empire by
> >> previous standards (oh yes it is you just go there) and not for
> >> example unprecidented levels of slavery and oppression
>
> >I have been to China and I can assure you you aint a democracy.
>
> He didn't say it was.

He came pretty close to saying it. I can assure you its only a
surprisingly free empire by Mao hell hole it certainly not freer then
pre-Mao much less then by any other standard.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

bernardz wrote:

> I am not talking of democracy as much as freedom.

Then maybe using the word you mean, as opposed the one which means
something different, would be helpful in the future.

--
Erik Max Francis && max.DeleteThis@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
All delays are dangerous in war.
-- John Dryden, 1631-1700
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:33:16 -0800, "Brion K. Lienhart"
<brionl.RemoveThis@lienhart.name> wrote:

>> Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx universe has some evil coming towards
>> the galaxy. Flinx knows it is evil, but that's basically all he
>> knows. I'd rather have it be hungry or something that is more real
>> than a vague "evil".
>
>ISTR recall that it is destroying all matter in its wake, on an
>inter-galactic scale. Sounds pretty "evil" to me.

I suppose if a meadow sensed the mind of a sheep coming its way - what
the meadow would sense would be "evil".

Or maybe not.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 21, 12:50 pm, Erik Max Francis <m....TakeThisOut@alcyone.com> wrote:
> bernardzwrote:
> > I am not talking of democracy as much as freedom.
>
> Then maybe using the word you mean, as opposed the one which means
> something different, would be helpful in the future.
>
> --
> Erik Max Francis && m....TakeThisOut@alcyone.com &&http://www.alcyone.com/max/
> San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
> All delays are dangerous in war.
> -- John Dryden, 1631-1700

Check the discussion thread, I actually did specify freedom and
peace.

The latter by the way empires are generally quite good at making.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

In article <3371695e-6ae8-446b-a6d9-0fbe81dfd068
@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Huw.Harries.DeleteThis@gmail.com says...
> On 19 Nov, 20:31, bernardZ <Berna....DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
> > In article <U410j.72783$Um6.5...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
> > joel_ol....DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Crown-Horned Snorkack" <chornedsnork....DeleteThis@hush.ai> wrote in message
> > >news:b91e9c5f-5fd2-4ad8-b76c-68e9d102b23c@i37g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> > > < ...
> > > < How would a early 21st century Earth, or middle 20th century Earth,
> > > < take it if one day a fleet showed up outside atmosphere, and next they
> > > < know they have a provincial government of a Galactic Empire to deal
> > > < with? Governing in the spirit of Plinius and Traianus?
> > > <
> >
> > > It all depends. What to they bring us?
> > > Technology, missionaries, unification, knowledge, culture shock?
> >
> > > What are the dues?
> > > Resources, people, biologicals, crystals, worship, room for settlers?
> >
> > > If it happens fast, as you imply, there'll be a job rush to work for
> > > the new masters. And we'll be dealing with that type of human.
> >
> > Also to a significant percentage of the worlds population today they may
> > bring more freedom and peace then they have now eg China, much of the
> > Middle East and large sections of Africa.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
> So incorperation into a new galactic empire will bring more freedome
> to people in China who live is what is a surprisingly free empire by
> previous standards (oh yes it is you just go there) and not for
> example unprecidented levels of slavery and oppression
>

I have been to China and I can assure you you aint a democracy.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:42:04 +1100, bernardZ <BernardZ.RemoveThis@nospam.com>
wrote:


>> > - Show quoted text -
>> So incorperation into a new galactic empire will bring more freedome
>> to people in China who live is what is a surprisingly free empire by
>> previous standards (oh yes it is you just go there) and not for
>> example unprecidented levels of slavery and oppression
>>
>
>I have been to China and I can assure you you aint a democracy.

He didn't say it was.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

In rec.arts.sf.science bernardz <bernardz.DeleteThis@mail.com> wrote:
> He came pretty close to saying it. I can assure you its only a
> surprisingly free empire by Mao hell hole it certainly not freer then
> pre-Mao much less then by any other standard.

Pre-Mao would break down into imperial, pre-war republic, war with Japan,
and civil war.

I don't know a lot about imperial China but it never struck me as a
particularly un-oppressive place. I can't imagine that the current
situation doesn't beat it by quite a bit.

The early period of the Republic of China was basically warlordism, which
is not at all conducive to freedom. The later period saw the beginning of
the oppressive one-party rule which didn't end in Taiwan until the 70s.

The war with Japan I think could easily be considered a case where an
inability to survive trumps whatever freedom may have existed. It's hard
to be considered free when a truly evil enemy is rampaging through your
country, killing your citizens by the million. And even if you survived
the evil enemy, your choice for native governance basically came down to a
choice between the crazy oppressive people running the republic, and the
crazy oppressive Communists. And then the civil war just took the evil
enemy out of the picture, leaving the latter two unpalatable choices.

By contrast, life there today is pretty free. Certainly there is a certain
amount of corruption, and it's a bad idea to be too politically vocal if
your opinions aren't officially blessed, and the government makes poor
attempts to block certain information, but overall it's decent. You can
choose your vocation, buy and sell property, run a business, and in
general be an economic free agent. There are certainly many places in the
world which are more free, but it's hard to see any time in China's past
which was.

Sure, they don't get to vote for their leaders, but that could easily be
considered as a situation which helps *ensure* freedom, not a freedom in
and of itself. China is a living proof that political freedom isn't a
prerequisite for all the rest. I don't *like* the situation, and I don't
think its chances of lasting long term are as good as they would be under
a democracy, but right now it seems that China is better off than it ever
has been, both on the national and individual scale.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 20, 5:26 pm, Howard Brazee <how....RemoveThis@brazee.net> wrote:
> >> Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx universe has some evil coming towards
> >> the galaxy. Flinx knows it is evil, but that's basically all he
> >> knows. I'd rather have it be hungry or something that is more real
> >> than a vague "evil".
>
> >ISTR recall that it is destroying all matter in its wake, on an
> >inter-galactic scale. Sounds pretty "evil" to me.
>
> I suppose if a meadow sensed the mind of a sheep coming its way - what
> the meadow would sense would be "evil".
>
> Or maybe not.

In either case, Snorkack is talking about an oppressive state
specifically --

> I think "oppressive" is closer to what I mean.

-- and certainly, when we talk about a Standard Galactic Empire
forbidding the Earth to have firefighters or whatever, we're not
talking about a non-conscious force that destroys all matter.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On Nov 19, 6:47 am, mcv <mcv....DeleteThis@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> This is not completely inexplicable. The original Latin names are more
> internationally recognisable than the Anglicised versions. I always get
> confused when someone calls John and Paul apostles, for example.
>

My apologies to you both, then.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On 21 Nov., 02:26, Howard Brazee <how....TakeThisOut@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> I suppose if a meadow sensed the mind of a sheep coming its way - what
> the meadow would sense would be "evil".
>
> Or maybe not.

The meadow would welcome the gardener and his cruel tools, He is doing
what has to be done,

Karl M. Syring
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

On 18 nov, 23:46, Howard Brazee <how....DeleteThis@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:29:42 -0800 (PST), Alfred Montestruc
>
> <montest....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >First off you need to be clear about what you mean by "evil".
>
> But lots of people don't feel that need. It's irritating when
> authors do this, sometimes the prince is overthrowing the current
> ruler without giving any evidence that this war will help the people.
>
It is rather obvious that overthrowing the current ruler and holding
on to the power will help the prince, and a small number of his
favoured associates. This should be reason enough? A prince does not
need any evidence that this war will help the people, he may very well
be aware that it is certain to bring only harm to the people - what
matters is evidence that this war helps himself. And winning the war
plainly does help him.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire? 

Michael Ash <mike.RemoveThis@mikeash.com> writes:

> In rec.arts.sf.science bernardz <bernardz.RemoveThis@mail.com> wrote:
>> He came pretty close to saying it. I can assure you its only a
>> surprisingly free empire by Mao hell hole it certainly not freer then
>> pre-Mao much less then by any other standard.
>
> Pre-Mao would break down into imperial, pre-war republic, war with Japan,
> and civil war.
>
> I don't know a lot about imperial China but it never struck me as a
> particularly un-oppressive place. I can't imagine that the current
> situation doesn't beat it by quite a bit.

True genocides and totalitarian oppression were only made possible by
modern technologies, population densities, communications, etc. They're
very much creatures of 20th+ century.

Imperial China didn't have the technologies or methodologies required
for modern totalitarianism or genocide. While the Emperor was a
supreme autocrat, his reach was very much limited by distance,
tradition and bureaucracy, which was also limited by distance and
tradition.

"The Mountains are High and the Emperor is Far Away", as the chinese
proverb put it.

--
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith.
I consider the capacity for it terrifying." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
 >> Stay informed about: How evil is a classical empire?