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Since: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:39 am
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>horror>written, others (more info?)
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Rebecca Rice <philospher77 DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:RbDJj.210$V14.177@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:
> Probably to make it clear that the drug is an opiate,
> probably hashish.
Not a good plan, since hashish is not an opiate. |
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Since: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:27 am
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Arthur Hansen wrote:
> On Apr 4, 1:01 am, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill....RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Most of it is simplication and toning down of what today might seem
>> over-dramatic, but WTF is :"Indian attendent" about? Did the
>> translator used to have a beter-paying job that got offshored?
>
> That is the point, it was overly boring and 'information overload'
> narrative that was bogging a concept which modern people are more
> familiar with these days.
>
> I'll probably have people with shotguns showing up at my house, but
> The Lord of the Rings Trilogy is in serious need of a modern rewrite
> to be relevant for todays audience.
>
> J.R.R. Tolkien's writing style is very, very dry and bogged down
> greatly.
The problem here is that this information is the information that makes
a work of literature a work of literature: it is the information the
provides the pleasure of reading a work of literature. A reader who
finds himself "bogged down" in it is a reader who has not acquired the
ability to read literature qua literature. In the end, there is only one
way to acquire that ability, and that is by reading literature. As
different works of literature present varying degrees of density of
literary information*, in order to acquire an ever-greater ability to
literature as literature, a reader should choose works a little above
one's current level.
*Note that, in general, the greater the density of literary information,
the greater the potential literary enjoyment.
In my opinion, the proper way to edit a text for the modern reader would
be to supply annotation providing background information, defining
words, and so on, that readers might now find obscure. In the passage
given, for instance, a note might explain the reference to Apollo and
define the word "sirocco".
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms" |
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Since: Nov 07, 2006
Posts: 35
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:24 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <65pnlvF2hi2qlU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
Dan Clore <clore.RemoveThis@columbia-center.org> wrote:
> In my opinion, the proper way to edit a text for the modern reader would
> be to supply annotation providing background information, defining
> words, and so on, that readers might now find obscure. In the passage
> given, for instance, a note might explain the reference to Apollo and
> define the word "sirocco".
Oh, I'm a footnote fan anyway, but to me the thought that Apollo might
need explaining is sickening.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Nov 07, 2006
Posts: 35
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:26 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article
<4c778402-d4e1-4b5c-8093-a8a314473f91 DeleteThis @i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ed Augusts <edaugusts DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> The editor of THIS horrible attempt at adapting a text for the modern
> reader, should just put HIS name on the new, edited book, with a
> "...suggested by the work of..." below. That way the responsibility
> for all the bare limbs of trees, denuded of their supple, wind-rustled
> leaves, that is to say, their beautiful images and allusions, is ON
> HIM and doesn't try to insult the original author by associating him
> with any of it.
LOUD APPLAUSE!!
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:32 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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erilar wrote:
> In article
> <4c778402-d4e1-4b5c-8093-a8a314473f91 RemoveThis @i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Ed Augusts <edaugusts RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The editor of THIS horrible attempt at adapting a text for the modern
>> reader, should just put HIS name on the new, edited book, with a
>> "...suggested by the work of..." below. That way the responsibility
>> for all the bare limbs of trees, denuded of their supple, wind-rustled
>> leaves, that is to say, their beautiful images and allusions, is ON
>> HIM and doesn't try to insult the original author by associating him
>> with any of it.
>
> LOUD APPLAUSE!!
Seconded. If I had bought this fraud new, instead of paying $1.00 for it
at a benefit sale--
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms" >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Apr 05, 2008
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 02:18:30 GMT, "Cosmin Corbea"
<cosminc DeleteThis @spa_mtrap.canada.com.invalid> wrote:
>Francis A. Miniter wrote:
>> Barb wrote:
>
>>
>> The modern editors (1) had no appreciation for that
>> subtlety, and (2) figured that the "modern reader" had no
>> appreciation or patience for leisurely narrative. The
>> latter is unfortunately probably true. We see it in the
>> pace of movies as well. Young people find the pace of older
>> movies far too slow.
>
>And yet, it seems to me that old movies had more plot. There were subplots,
>diversions, characters were more well, characterized. The modern movie has
>replaced most of that with extended and less and less believable action
>sequences
I recommend Almodóvar -- I'm just hitting a lode in my Netflix queue. Subplots,
diversion, character, all you want, and rather bizarre to boot.
P. Taine >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:49 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <slrnfve35r.qbd.dbd.TakeThisOut@gatekeeper.vic.com>, David DeLaney
> <dbd.TakeThisOut@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> Rebecca Rice <philospher77.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Dan Clore <clore.TakeThisOut@columbia-center.org> writes:
>>>>> Experiment called for repetition--in order to verification,
>>>>> said the fiend,--and repetition led first to a longing after
>>>>> its effects, and next to a mad appetite for the thing itself;
>>>>> ...
>>> And who the "fiend" is... the drug? But drugs don't talk. Or is
>>> that a misspelling of "friend"?
>> It's short for "drug fiend", the addicted friend.
>
> Or else the fiend is the devil, tempting the guy to do more drugs.
> MacDonald was a very religious writer, who influenced C. S. Lewis
> quite a lot.
I think that MacDonald may have had in mind the sort of internal
dialogue that is now only familiar from comedies and cartoons, in which
a character has his guardian angel prompting him to good, and a devil
arguing the other side. This wouldn't necessarily be intended literally,
but rather as a dramatization of the character arguing with himself.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms" >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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External
Since: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:59 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dan Clore <clore RemoveThis @columbia-center.org> wrote in
news:65pnlvF2hi2qlU1@mid.individual.net:
>> J.R.R. Tolkien's writing style is very, very dry and
bogged down
>> greatly.
>
> The problem here is that this information is the
information that makes
> a work of literature a work of literature: it is the
information the
> provides the pleasure of reading a work of literature. A
reader who
> finds himself "bogged down" in it is a reader who has not
acquired the
> ability to read literature qua literature.
It seems to me that another problem is that if you think
Tolkien is very dry, you appear to have picked up the wrong
book. People often complain about Tom Bombadil, but
complaining that it's very dry is a head-spinner. >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Mar 10, 2008
Posts: 47
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:57 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <slrnfve35r.qbd.dbd DeleteThis @gatekeeper.vic.com>,
> David DeLaney <dbd DeleteThis @gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> Rebecca Rice <philospher77 DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Dan Clore <clore DeleteThis @columbia-center.org> writes:
>>>>> Experiment called for repetition--in
>>>>> order to verification, said the fiend,--and repetition led first to a
>>>>> longing after its effects, and next to a mad appetite for the thing
>>>>> itself; ...
>>> And who the "fiend" is... the drug? But drugs don't talk.
>>> Or is that a misspelling of "friend"?
>> It's short for "drug fiend", the addicted friend.
>
> Or else the fiend is the devil, tempting the guy to do more
> drugs. MacDonald was a very religious writer, who influenced C.
> S. Lewis quite a lot.
>
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt DeleteThis @kithrup.com
I took the "fiend" to be him himself. He had become a drug
fiend without realizing it.
Francis A. Miniter >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Jack Campin - bogus addre
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External
Since: Oct 23, 2005
Posts: 85
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>>>>>> Experiment called for repetition--in order to verification,
>>>>>> said the fiend,--and repetition led first to a longing after
>>>>>> its effects, and next to a mad appetite for the thing itself;
>>>> And who the "fiend" is... the drug? But drugs don't talk. Or is
>>>> that a misspelling of "friend"?
>>> It's short for "drug fiend", the addicted friend.
>> Or else the fiend is the devil, tempting the guy to do more drugs.
>> MacDonald was a very religious writer, who influenced C. S. Lewis
>> quite a lot.
> I think that MacDonald may have had in mind the sort of internal
> dialogue that is now only familiar from comedies and cartoons, in which
> a character has his guardian angel prompting him to good, and a devil
> arguing the other side. This wouldn't necessarily be intended literally,
> but rather as a dramatization of the character arguing with himself.
Yes - the idea is probably derived from Hogg's "Private Memoirs and
Confessions of a Justified Sinner", which Macdonald must have been
very familiar with.
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:49 am
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <65nflvF2gjar6U1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>,
Sean O'Hara <seanohara.DeleteThis@gmail.com> said:
> In the Year of the Earth Rat, the Great and Powerful Arthur Hansen
> declared:
>
>> That is the point, it was overly boring and 'information
>> overload' narrative that was bogging a concept which modern
>> people are more familiar with these days.
>
> If you believe "modern people" are morons, sure. But if that's the
> case, they should refrain from reading rather than having
> literature dumbed down for their reading level.
Altertatively, some literature really should have been edited with a
steam-driven machete the first time around.
--
William December Starr <wdstarr.DeleteThis@panix.com> >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <65pnlvF2hi2qlU1.TakeThisOut@mid.individual.net>,
clore.TakeThisOut@columbia-center.org said:
> The problem here is that this information is the information that
> makes a work of literature a work of literature: it is the
> information the provides the pleasure of reading a work of
> literature. A reader who finds himself "bogged down" in it is a
> reader who has not acquired the ability to read literature qua
> literature.
It's true: some of us would prefer to read a good book instead.
--
William December Starr <wdstarr.TakeThisOut@panix.com> >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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External
Since: Apr 18, 2005
Posts: 15
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:35 am
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>horror>written, others (more info?)
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On Apr 4, 2:44 am, fairwa....DeleteThis@gmail.com (Derek Lyons) wrote:
> Dan Clore <cl....DeleteThis@columbia-center.org> wrote:
> >I open the field for comment as to what this implies about "today's reader".
>
> And why not comments on what it implies for yesterdays?
Perhaps someone could write a time travel novel that was edited for
yesterdays' readers. Or tomorrow's. >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Mar 10, 2008
Posts: 47
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:36 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>horror>written, others (more info?)
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Dan Clore wrote:
> Arthur Hansen wrote:
>> On Apr 4, 1:01 am, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Most of it is simplication and toning down of what today might seem
>>> over-dramatic, but WTF is :"Indian attendent" about? Did the
>>> translator used to have a beter-paying job that got offshored?
>>
>> That is the point, it was overly boring and 'information overload'
>> narrative that was bogging a concept which modern people are more
>> familiar with these days.
>>
>> I'll probably have people with shotguns showing up at my house, but
>> The Lord of the Rings Trilogy is in serious need of a modern rewrite
>> to be relevant for todays audience.
>>
>> J.R.R. Tolkien's writing style is very, very dry and bogged down greatly.
>
> The problem here is that this information is the information that makes
> a work of literature a work of literature: it is the information the
> provides the pleasure of reading a work of literature. A reader who
> finds himself "bogged down" in it is a reader who has not acquired the
> ability to read literature qua literature. In the end, there is only one
> way to acquire that ability, and that is by reading literature. As
> different works of literature present varying degrees of density of
> literary information*, in order to acquire an ever-greater ability to
> literature as literature, a reader should choose works a little above
> one's current level.
>
> *Note that, in general, the greater the density of literary information,
> the greater the potential literary enjoyment.
>
> In my opinion, the proper way to edit a text for the modern reader would
> be to supply annotation providing background information, defining
> words, and so on, that readers might now find obscure. In the passage
> given, for instance, a note might explain the reference to Apollo and
> define the word "sirocco".
>
I agree. You remind me of that beautiful passage in Proust
(sorry, I can't remember which volume) where the narrator
spends two or three pages describing the experience of a
phone call from his grandmother.
Francis A. Miniter >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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Since: Mar 10, 2008
Posts: 47
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:43 pm
Post subject: Re: "Edited for the Modern Reader" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Arthur Hansen wrote:
> On Apr 4, 1:01�am, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill... DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Most of it is simplication and toning down of what today might seem
>> over-dramatic, but WTF is :"Indian attendent" about? �Did the
>> translator used to have a beter-paying job that got offshored?
>
> That is the point, it was overly boring and 'information overload'
> narrative that was bogging a concept which modern people are more
> familiar with these days.
>
> I'll probably have people with shotguns showing up at my house, but
> The Lord of the Rings Trilogy is in serious need of a modern rewrite
> to be relevant for todays audience.
>
> J.R.R. Tolkien's writing style is very, very dry and bogged down
> greatly.
>
> Arthur
Tolkien dry? When I first read your post, I thought it must
be ironic. But after re-reading, I realized you were
serious. I have read The Lord of the Rings more times than
I have any other book. And still, or should I say still
more, I appreciate the richness of his prose. There are
many passages where he deliberately uses vague allusion to
stimulate the imagination of the reader. And it works.
Just look at the discussions in r.a.b.tolkien. And for
first sentences, I rank the opening lines of LOTR among the
top five I have come across.
Francis A. Miniter >> Stay informed about: "Edited for the Modern Reader" |
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