future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:31:40 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>"Tux Wonder-Dog" <wes.parish.TakeThisOut@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>> In a former life I was a Classics student, and one of the things that
>> really
>> bugged me was the existence of ancient Greek and Roman authors in citation
>> in various digests that alone survived the years. It would be so much
>> better to have the full works!
>>
>> I was reading some of the posts and I got to thinking - assume that the
>> books have disappeared at some future date, and all the future literary
>> archeologist has to use are these newsgroup posts, how accurate a picture
>> of Tolkien's oeuvre do you think he would be able to build up?
>
>Interesting. At first blush I'd say an accurate picture. Quite apart from
>the quotes we use, I would hope we get most things right. I do hope future
>archaeologists won't conflate LotR and the Count of Monte Fato and the other
>writings, such as the jellyfish ones...

Well, there's always the e-text. And the Peter Jackson recension.
--
"He who should know the history of words
would know all history"
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

Paul S. Person wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:31:40 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
> <spamgard.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>"Tux Wonder-Dog" <wes.parish.DeleteThis@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In a former life I was a Classics student, and one of the things that
>>>really
>>>bugged me was the existence of ancient Greek and Roman authors in citation
>>>in various digests that alone survived the years. It would be so much
>>>better to have the full works!
>>>
>>>I was reading some of the posts and I got to thinking - assume that the
>>>books have disappeared at some future date, and all the future literary
>>>archeologist has to use are these newsgroup posts, how accurate a picture
>>>of Tolkien's oeuvre do you think he would be able to build up?
>>
>>Interesting. At first blush I'd say an accurate picture. Quite apart from
>>the quotes we use, I would hope we get most things right. I do hope future
>>archaeologists won't conflate LotR and the Count of Monte Fato and the other
>>writings, such as the jellyfish ones...
>
>
> Well, there's always the e-text. And the Peter Jackson recension.

And the FAQs
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

In message <<471b31b7 RemoveThis @clear.net.nz>>, Tux Wonder-Dog
<wes.parish RemoveThis @paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> I was reading some of the posts and I got to thinking - assume that
> the books have disappeared at some future date, and all the future
> literary archeologist has to use are these newsgroup posts, how
> accurate a picture of Tolkien's oeuvre do you think he would be able
> to build up?

What an interesting thought! We can begin by assuming that this
future scholar will be able to recognize that things like the E-text
are just parodies, but that being recognized, even they could give
very substantial hints as to the overall flow of the story. And
things like the CotW discussions would give an even clearer picture.

Some of the very best quotes and bits would clearly survive, from all
of the "favorite scene" threads (and the like) over the years. But
a lot of obscure minutiae would be unduly represented and emphasized
(I shudder to think about this neo-classics scholar's impression of
the significance of the wingedness of Balrogs to the story).

But by matching fragment to fragment, I'd guess that many entire
scenes could be reconstructed (especially if those scenes touched in
any way on one of our "great debates"). It would be interesting to
take the groups' archives and set a computer program at them to
assemble the fragments into longer sequences: if we can reconstruct
the human genome that way, it shouldn't be too hard to apply similar
technology to text. (Do classics scholars use those tools these days?
I seem to recall that the Dead Sea Scrolls were reconstructed in part
in that way...)

Steuard Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:whKSi.58053$lV4.57780@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Tux Wonder-Dog" <wes.parish.RemoveThis@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>> In a former life I was a Classics student, and one of the things that
>> really
>> bugged me was the existence of ancient Greek and Roman authors in
>> citation
>> in various digests that alone survived the years. It would be so much
>> better to have the full works!
>>
>> I was reading some of the posts and I got to thinking - assume that the
>> books have disappeared at some future date, and all the future literary
>> archeologist has to use are these newsgroup posts, how accurate a picture
>> of Tolkien's oeuvre do you think he would be able to build up?
>
> Interesting. At first blush I'd say an accurate picture. Quite apart from
> the quotes we use, I would hope we get most things right. I do hope future
> archaeologists won't conflate LotR and the Count of Monte Fato and the
> other writings, such as the jellyfish ones...

Eels! Eels! Eels!

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

"Paul S. Person" <psperson RemoveThis @ix.netscom.com.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:llvtk3hq21orps5sqlvjm7tsu3olesv3k0@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:46:57 +0100, "Öjevind Lång"
> <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote:

[snip]

> This is very reminiscent of the story by Stewart Robb, "Letter from a
> Higher Critic", published in Analog Nov 1966. Information courtesy of
> http://contento.best.vwh.net/s207.htm#A3840.1. It apparently also
> appears in a book, /Analog 6/, ed. John W. Campbell, Doubleday 1968.
>
> In the future, a young, impetuous scholar has dared to publish an
> article claiming that the epic struggle known as "WW II" actually
> occurred. This letter explains how it is known that no such event
> occurred, but that it is purely mythological.

That sounds like a worthwhile read. There is an old alternative history
novel called "Bring on the Jubilee" with a somewhat related theme. In it, a
historian in a world where the South won the Civil War tries to imagine what
things would have looked like if the North had won. I believe the jubilee is
the centennial one for the civil war.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Paul S. Person" <psperson DeleteThis @ix.netscom.com.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
> news:llvtk3hq21orps5sqlvjm7tsu3olesv3k0@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:46:57 +0100, "Öjevind Lång"
>> <bredband.net DeleteThis @ojevind.lang> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> This is very reminiscent of the story by Stewart Robb, "Letter from a
>> Higher Critic", published in Analog Nov 1966. Information courtesy of
>> http://contento.best.vwh.net/s207.htm#A3840.1. It apparently also
>> appears in a book, /Analog 6/, ed. John W. Campbell, Doubleday 1968.
>>
>> In the future, a young, impetuous scholar has dared to publish an
>> article claiming that the epic struggle known as "WW II" actually
>> occurred. This letter explains how it is known that no such event
>> occurred, but that it is purely mythological.
>
> That sounds like a worthwhile read. There is an old alternative history
> novel called "Bring on the Jubilee" with a somewhat related theme. In it, a
> historian in a world where the South won the Civil War tries to imagine what
> things would have looked like if the North had won. I believe the jubilee is
> the centennial one for the civil war.

It is also a reference to a popular song of the war.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004)
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne RemoveThis @attglobal.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:JiI4j.1041$gm.816@newsfe08.lga...

[snip]

>> That sounds like a worthwhile read. There is an old alternative history
>> novel called "Bring on the Jubilee" with a somewhat related theme. In it,
>> a historian in a world where the South won the Civil War tries to imagine
>> what things would have looked like if the North had won. I believe the
>> jubilee is the centennial one for the civil war.
>
> It is also a reference to a popular song of the war.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Thank you!

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

In article <5rhhedF14ktmoU1.TakeThisOut@mid.individual.net>,
bredband.net.TakeThisOut@ojevind.lang says...
> "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne.TakeThisOut@attglobal.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:JiI4j.1041$gm.816@newsfe08.lga...
>
> [snip]
>
> >> That sounds like a worthwhile read. There is an old alternative history
> >> novel called "Bring on the Jubilee" with a somewhat related theme. In it,
> >> a historian in a world where the South won the Civil War tries to imagine
> >> what things would have looked like if the North had won. I believe the
> >> jubilee is the centennial one for the civil war.
> >
> > It is also a reference to a popular song of the war.
>
> Interesting. I didn't know that. Thank you!
>
> Öjevind

The book is 'Bring the Jubilee' by Ward Moore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee

and the song 'Marching through Georgia':
http://www.friesian.com/ross/marching.htm

--
Pete Gray

Full set of enclopaedias for sale - no longer required as wife knows
everything
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:37:04 -0000, Steuard Jensen <steuard.TakeThisOut@slimy.com>
wrote:

>In message <<471b31b7.TakeThisOut@clear.net.nz>>, Tux Wonder-Dog
><wes.parish.TakeThisOut@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> I was reading some of the posts and I got to thinking - assume that
>> the books have disappeared at some future date, and all the future
>> literary archeologist has to use are these newsgroup posts, how
>> accurate a picture of Tolkien's oeuvre do you think he would be able
>> to build up?
>
>What an interesting thought! We can begin by assuming that this
>future scholar will be able to recognize that things like the E-text
>are just parodies, but that being recognized, even they could give
>very substantial hints as to the overall flow of the story. And
>things like the CotW discussions would give an even clearer picture.
>
>Some of the very best quotes and bits would clearly survive, from all
>of the "favorite scene" threads (and the like) over the years. But
>a lot of obscure minutiae would be unduly represented and emphasized
>(I shudder to think about this neo-classics scholar's impression of
>the significance of the wingedness of Balrogs to the story).

I would wager a substantial amount of money that it would be virtually
impossible to reconstruct the appendixes.

Morgoth's Curse
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations 

"Pete Gray" <news RemoveThis @redbadge.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.21c279cba8ea0d1698971e@news.zen.co.uk...

[snip]

>The book is 'Bring the Jubilee' by Ward Moore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee

>and the song 'Marching through Georgia':
http://www.friesian.com/ross/marching.htm


Thank you!

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: future literary archeologists and Tolkien citations