If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........

"deathdream" <deathdream1966.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<104kgoij9j1qj12.TakeThisOut@corp.supernews.com>...
 > Once again I ask...
 >
 > Mr. Barker, why don't you just FUCK OFF???

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I can see that I *am* going to
have to insist on getting hold of your full name and address so that I
can call the Police in.

Some of us know who you are. Besides, you hardly assist those you seek
to assist - no one in the right mind would touch you with a bargepole.
You have the filthiest mouth we have ever seen in this forum.

NB. I wonder if Roden will set about a FAQ which seeks to stop
Deathdream....no, of course he won't: dictators willingly overlook the
antics of murderous thugs if at is to their benefit.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

On 7 Mar 2004 04:07:14 -0800, OhThoseVileBodies DeleteThis @hotmail.com (Haunted
River) wrote:


 >NB. I wonder if Roden will set about a FAQ which seeks to stop
 >Deathdream....no, of course he won't: dictators willingly overlook the
 >antics of murderous thugs if at is to their benefit.

I think it's fair to respond to this.

The answer is no, for the simple reason that I have not been
personally abused and vilified by Deathdream.

That doesn't mean to say that I endorse or condone the postings
Deathdream has made, or that I overlook them. They just don't affect
me personally.

Christopher<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

ON THE SUBJECT OF NOTCH-BINDING

I see that Mr Barker wishes to resurrect the discussion on whether a
notch-bound book is better than a smyth sewn book. In my opinion, no.
Notch-binding is so recent an innovation that its durability is not
sufficiently proven to enable wild claims to be made for it.

Where Delirium is concerned, it is very noticeable that their web site
is going more than naturally out of its way to claim for notch-binding
what cannot reasonably be claimed at this point in time (though they
are, at least, clearly stating what their customer can expect to
receive). Taco Bell and Kentucky Fried Chicken both claim that good
meals can be had at their restaurants, and this may be true (though I
would disagree with those claims, too). What the consumer has to ask
in their case is: could I get a better meal elsewhere? In the same
way, the purchaser of binding products, presented with the
notch-binding option, should ask: 'could I get better binding
elsewhere?' The answer, according to UK printers Antony Rowe Ltd.,
appears to be yes. This is extracted from their comments:


 >Our in-house bindery is capable of producing cased,
limp and loose-leaf work. We are also able to arrange wirestitching
and wiro binding.
 >
 >Cased and limp books may be unsewn,
notched or sewn (unsewn and notched binding are the same price but
notched binding is not available for books printed on our digital
presses). A sewn book is more durable, but more expensive than an
unsewn book. >>

and can be found at:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.writewords.org.uk/articles/self_publishing10.asp" target="_blank">http://www.writewords.org.uk/articles/self_publishing10.asp</a>

Notch-binding is the cheaper option (confirmed by Antony Rowe in the
quote above) chosen today by mainstream publishers of mass-produced
hardbacks (and likely paperbacks in some instances). The pages of one
that I've recently handled, and commented on elsewhere - A GARDEN LOST
IN TIME by Jonathan Aycliffe, published in the UK by Allison and Busby
- are barely clinging to their glue, and the notching is parting in a
number of places. That doesn't inspire my confidence in the method,
and it certainly doesn't inspire me to rate the method as even
approaching conventional smyth sewn books.

Quite why Delirium feel that this is a suitable binding method for
limited edition books they are marketing at so high a price is beyond
me. Possibly (?) their printer/binder offers no other option. As with
everything in mass market publishing these days, the product is being
reduced to its lowest level: paper stock is cheap, bindings are cheap,
editing is of a questionable standard, proof-reading seems to be
almost non-existent. When publishers are continually looking for the
cheapest option, eventually the cheapest option is the only one that
will be available. It's rather like having Wal-Mart move into your
area and pressuring the quality corner store. The prices are undercut
more and more until the quality corner store can no longer survive,
then all that is left is Wal-Mart, with the result that the nice
quality goods you could at one time buy at the corner store are no
longer available, simply because Wal-Mart doesn't choose to stock
them: they only sell what they want you to buy.

We're already seeing changes with the paper and cloth that is being
offered by the various mills in the US - the range is becoming more
limited. Thankfully, there are still traditional printers around who
offer smyth sewing on a book product, and as long as there are, that's
what I'll be buying. The fact is that smyth sewing is proven, it's
classier, and, until someone proves otherwise, over a prolonged period
of time, it's more durable.



Christopher





On 6 Mar 2004 13:01:46 -0800, OhThoseVileBodies DeleteThis @hotmail.com (Haunted
River) wrote:

 >A very attractive-looking deluxe limited edition of a Ramsey Campbell
 >piece ("The Parasite") is being released by Delirium Books. Fifty-two
 >copies selling for $360 per copy.
 >
 >Interestingly, the book is being made by the very same process
 >employed in The Haunted River's THE DREAMS OF CARDINAL VITTORINI.
 >Delirium Books quite rightly describe it as the most durable binding
 >method in the marketplace. For that reason it is more expensive than
 >other methods. Obviously some traditionalists may prefer to stick with
 >cheaper sewn bindings for sentimental reasons, but it is their loss.
 >
 >Full details at:
 >
 >http://www.deliriumbooks.com/bindspecs.htm
 >
 >Now, I wonder quite how Messrs Roden, Pelan and Anderson can justify
 >their having posted hundreds of deeply unpleasant messages about our
 >binding of the VITTORINI volume by this same method? Those nasty,
 >jealous 'rival' attacks caused much ill-feeling in this forum which
 >persists still to this day. They ridiculed this binding method in huge
 >detail, and even went so far as to suggest in an AH review that it was
 >inferior.
 >
 >But clearly it is not: clearly they are just ognorant and deeply
 >prejudiced.
 >
 >I don't like to predict the future, but I will go out on a limb on
 >this one occasion and say this: there is more chance of Edgar Allen
 >Poe being reanimated by a mad scientist so that he can switch on the
 >Christmas tree lights in London next year with a drunken cry of "This
 >is for you Leonora darlin'!" then there is of Messrs Roden, Anderson
 >and Pelan pouring ferocious scorn upon Delirium Books for using this
 >new highly regarded method of book binding.
 >
 >Chris Barker
 >The Haunted River
 >www.users.waitrose.com/~hauntedriver
 >
 >PS. It is actually very pleasant and very unstressful being ignored by
 >Messrs Roden, Pelan and Anderson. I don't have to bother to reply to
 >their inane attempts to distort the truth. I extend my sincere thanks
 >to them for giving me a clear floor. Furthermore, I believe that they
 >have inadvertently stumbled upon the very best way to reduce acrimony
 >in this forum. Well done! People who want to read my posts can, people
 >who don't can just go on ignoring me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

In article <30om40p2f6v62guct80ulefl41ha2tmbnc.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>, Christopher Roden
<ashtree.TakeThisOut@ash-tree.bc.ca> wrote:

 > ON THE SUBJECT OF NOTCH-BINDING
 >
 > I see that Mr Barker wishes to resurrect the discussion on whether a
 > notch-bound book is better than a smyth sewn book. In my opinion, no.
 > Notch-binding is so recent an innovation that its durability is not
 > sufficiently proven to enable wild claims to be made for it.

Looks like you got suckered into another non-argument. The issue back-when
as I recall was not so much the lesser quality of notch-binding, which no
one in their right mind would contradict; the issue was that of having
advertised a high-end well-made book (smyth-sewn) & delivering to
hoodwinked buyers something that was merely notch-bound. If it hadn't been
dishonestly advertised as a higher quality that was actually being sold,
what really would it matter if it were a cost-saving edition, which is
what is generally expected from low-end fannish publishers anyway, but to
misrepresent notch-binding as smyth-sewn in a mail-order deal is fraud. If
one is selling chocolate flavored wax as "chocolate flavored wax," anyone
who wants that product knows what they're getting. But if it is sold as
"pure 100% dark chocolate" & what gets shipped to you is chocolate
flavored wax, that is fraud & thievery. Really no reason to deplore the
HONEST wax seller.

When you get "baited" into a non-argument like one that demands proof that
sewn bindings are inferior to unsewn, when the issue was actually fraud,
you can see how the bait-&-switch actually functions -- bait-&-switch the
promised smythe-sewn for the unsewen product, & bait-&-switch the fact of
fraud for the absurd argument that unsewn is better.

Delirium is a lovely little amateur press. They have never misrepresented
their notch-binding as smythe-sewn, nor that I ever saw claimed unsewn is
superior to sewn. Their specs merely state that notched & glued is better
than glued but NOT notched -- it rather carefully avoids mentioning sewn
bindings at all! He may repeat a sales pitch about "excellence" that you
or I would never rely on as a highlight in publishing, but it's not really
exaggerating since he's making no comparison to sewn signatures, not
claiming unsewn is better than sewn, and CERTAINLY NOT falsely advertising
a sewn binding & shipping one that is merely glued. There's really no
comparison between a factual sales pitch that avoids mentioning sewn would
be better but the press can't afford it, & fraudulently pitching the
unsewn product as actually being sewn.

So as you see, engaging in these arguments is once again merely letting
yourself be led down a garden path that ends in a weedpatch of non
sequitors. If you saw a man beating the living daylights out of his dog
until it kealed over unconscious, & you told the bloody cretin this was
illegal & inappropriate behavior, it should not matter to you when he
replies by demanding you PROVE his dwarfed & manged mutt isn't a happy
healthy purebreed. Such red herrings are designed to shift away from the
FACT that "It is a criminal act to beat your dog" & make you waste your
time defining the difference between healthy & sick animals, mutts &
purebreeds, happy or neurotic -- none of which was ever the real point.
It's a "method" of obscuring arguments that cannot be rationally argued.
Fraud remains fraud, unsewn is not sewn. Period.

-paghat the ratgirl

 > Where Delirium is concerned, it is very noticeable that their web site
 > is going more than naturally out of its way to claim for notch-binding
 > what cannot reasonably be claimed at this point in time (though they
 > are, at least, clearly stating what their customer can expect to
 > receive). Taco Bell and Kentucky Fried Chicken both claim that good
 > meals can be had at their restaurants, and this may be true (though I
 > would disagree with those claims, too). What the consumer has to ask
 > in their case is: could I get a better meal elsewhere? In the same
 > way, the purchaser of binding products, presented with the
 > notch-binding option, should ask: 'could I get better binding
 > elsewhere?' The answer, according to UK printers Antony Rowe Ltd.,
 > appears to be yes. This is extracted from their comments:
 >
 >
  > >Our in-house bindery is capable of producing cased,
 > limp and loose-leaf work. We are also able to arrange wirestitching
 > and wiro binding.
  > >
  > >Cased and limp books may be unsewn,
 > notched or sewn (unsewn and notched binding are the same price but
 > notched binding is not available for books printed on our digital
 > presses). A sewn book is more durable, but more expensive than an
 > unsewn book. >>
 >
 > and can be found at:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.writewords.org.uk/articles/self_publishing10.asp</font" target="_blank">http://www.writewords.org.uk/articles/self_publishing10.asp</font</a>>
 >
 > Notch-binding is the cheaper option (confirmed by Antony Rowe in the
 > quote above) chosen today by mainstream publishers of mass-produced
 > hardbacks (and likely paperbacks in some instances). The pages of one
 > that I've recently handled, and commented on elsewhere - A GARDEN LOST
 > IN TIME by Jonathan Aycliffe, published in the UK by Allison and Busby
 > - are barely clinging to their glue, and the notching is parting in a
 > number of places. That doesn't inspire my confidence in the method,
 > and it certainly doesn't inspire me to rate the method as even
 > approaching conventional smyth sewn books.
 >
 > Quite why Delirium feel that this is a suitable binding method for
 > limited edition books they are marketing at so high a price is beyond
 > me. Possibly (?) their printer/binder offers no other option. As with
 > everything in mass market publishing these days, the product is being
 > reduced to its lowest level: paper stock is cheap, bindings are cheap,
 > editing is of a questionable standard, proof-reading seems to be
 > almost non-existent. When publishers are continually looking for the
 > cheapest option, eventually the cheapest option is the only one that
 > will be available. It's rather like having Wal-Mart move into your
 > area and pressuring the quality corner store. The prices are undercut
 > more and more until the quality corner store can no longer survive,
 > then all that is left is Wal-Mart, with the result that the nice
 > quality goods you could at one time buy at the corner store are no
 > longer available, simply because Wal-Mart doesn't choose to stock
 > them: they only sell what they want you to buy.
 >
 > We're already seeing changes with the paper and cloth that is being
 > offered by the various mills in the US - the range is becoming more
 > limited. Thankfully, there are still traditional printers around who
 > offer smyth sewing on a book product, and as long as there are, that's
 > what I'll be buying. The fact is that smyth sewing is proven, it's
 > classier, and, until someone proves otherwise, over a prolonged period
 > of time, it's more durable.
 >
 >
 >
 > Christopher

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.paghat.com/" target="_blank">http://www.paghat.com/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 11:34:31 -0800, paghat.RemoveThis@netscapeSPAM-ME-NOT.net
(paghat) wrote:


 >
 >Looks like you got suckered into another non-argument.

Possibly. Though I felt it quite reasonable to state my view of
notch-binding supported by verifiable information from one of the
fastest growing book printers in the UK - one used by ourselves at one
time, one used by other small presses in the UK still - particularly
as I'd also referred to the binding method in a posting on another
topic.

I'm not interested in the question of misrepresentation, fraud, call
it what you will, others can and have judged: this was a statement on
the quality of notch-binding. As I said in the posting, at least
Delirium's customers are aware of what they're getting, since it's
clearly spelled out for them.

Christopher<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

This is an excellent description of Smyth-Sewn bindings:

SMYTH-SEWING:

After collation, signatures are run through a Smyth sewing machine,
named after the Smyth brothers who manufactured them. Using a strong
nylon thread, these machines sew each signature through the folded
spine with several stitches, then link it to the next signature. Smyth
sewing holds each signature tightly together so that it will not fall
apart, but also allows the spine of the book to bend. This process is
the basis of the case-bound book's strength and flexibility.

The tension required to tighten the thread for each stitch can pull
through the back of the signature if the strength of the paper is
insufficient. For this reason, 8 page signatures are the minimum
thickness run through the Smyth sewing machine, and 16 or 32 page
signatures are preferred, depending on the stock used. Smaller
signatures must either be tipped to the outside of a larger one, or
nested (inserted) until there are two, three, or four thicknesses of
paper to sew through.

Smyth sewing also requires that books be made up of at least two
signatures, so very thin books must be imposed and paper chosen
accordingly.
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

Christopher Roden <ashtree.TakeThisOut@ash-tree.bc.ca> wrote in message news:<vfmm40d7du7o7lm5aflqbf4cnlspcqh8ef.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>...
 > On 7 Mar 2004 04:07:14 -0800, OhThoseVileBodies.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (Haunted
 > River) wrote:
 >
 >
  > >NB. I wonder if Roden will set about a FAQ which seeks to stop
  > >Deathdream....no, of course he won't: dictators willingly overlook the
  > >antics of murderous thugs if at is to their benefit.
 >
 > I think it's fair to respond to this.
 >

It may be fair but is it consistent?

One minute you're sweeping out of the group in a theatrical swoon, the
next you're charging off to Yahoo to set up rival groups so that you
need not grace ABGF with your presence, then it's "Hands up who will
vote to ignore Mr Barker?", then it's "Ooh, actually, I want to
respond to Mr Barker".

What do you think this suggests about your integrity? And would people
be wise to follow a leader who keeps changing his mind every five
minutes?

Of course, it would have been greatly in my favour to have just left
you running around like a headless chicken, constantly changing your
mind like a feverishly manipulative and deeply insecure child in a
school playground. After all, Napoleon made the interesting
observation that one shouldn't interrupt one's enemies when they were
making a mistake. But I am *genuinely* interested in this personality
trait of yours, hence my belief that it is worth asking the question
(not that I expect an honest answer):

Why oh why do you keep changing your mind?

(Oh dear, I can hear that Joe Strummer guitar twang again. "Should I
stay or should I go now? If I stay it will be trouble.....if I go it
will be double...")


Chris Barker
The Haunted River
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.users.waitrose.com/~hauntedriver" target="_blank">www.users.waitrose.com/~hauntedriver</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

This is a standard reply to someone whose vendettas have darkened the
tone of alt.books.ghost-fiction for many years.

Reasoned argument and factual refutation have failed to stop his
attacks. Even a cursory glance at the newsgroup's archives will
readily establish that fact. Therefore, many long-time contributors to
this group have agreed to share this message as the most appropriate
response to his accusations.


Anyone who cares to separate fact from false allegation is welcomed to
contact the people, societies, businesses, and publications that are
his constant targets.

We look forward to hearing from you.






On 8 Mar 2004 13:11:57 -0800, OhThoseVileBodies RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Haunted
River) wrote:

 >Christopher Roden <ashtree RemoveThis @ash-tree.bc.ca> wrote in message news:<vfmm40d7du7o7lm5aflqbf4cnlspcqh8ef RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
  >> On 7 Mar 2004 04:07:14 -0800, OhThoseVileBodies RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Haunted
  >> River) wrote:
  >>
[snip]<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

I went into Vancouver and boxed up a Library of Fantasy, Science Fiction, Detective Fiction and Supernatural
stories, and brought it back to Victoria.
A lifetime collection, begun in the 1960's.
650 boxes of pulps, paperbacks, hardcovers, vintage first editions, early jackets..... The finest collection that I
knew about in the Pacific Northwest, and, perhaps, in all of Canada (except maybe Chester's collection in Winnipeg,
but that's also got tons of junk in it).


Best to bear in mind that there is work to be done. And more books... and more books... and nowhere to put them!

You may now return to your regularly scheduled arguments.

mj

PS. Please do not feed the troll.

--

Michael John Thompson
Thompson Rare Books
950 Fort Street
Victoria, British Columbia
Canada V8V 3K2
Telephone: 250-384-9977
http://www.mjtbooks.com
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

Michael John Thompson <mjt.TakeThisOut@mjtbooks.com> wrote in message news:<404D504E.34BF949C.TakeThisOut@mjtbooks.com>...
> I went into Vancouver and boxed up a Library of Fantasy, Science Fiction, Detective Fiction and Supernatural
> stories, and brought it back to Victoria.
> A lifetime collection, begun in the 1960's.
> 650 boxes of pulps, paperbacks, hardcovers, vintage first editions, early jackets..... The finest collection that I
> knew about in the Pacific Northwest, and, perhaps, in all of Canada (except maybe Chester's collection in Winnipeg,
> but that's also got tons of junk in it).
>
>
> Best to bear in mind that there is work to be done. And more books... and more books... and nowhere to put them!
>
> You may now return to your regularly scheduled arguments.
>
> mj
>


You mean the arguments that you often participate in, whether it be in
person or via sock-puppet?

BTW: I presume this means you weren't bidding on the M R James MSS
that came up at a UK auction then?
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

Sigh.

Don't feed the troll. Don't feed the troll. Don't feed the troll.

Thought I'd drop by one last time to see what the status of things
might be, and find it much the same as I left it. Feverishly
manipulated? Feverish, in any case, Mr. B. I can almost picture you
like one of those old cartoon character villain's twirling a silly
moustache and rubbing your hands with glee going OH MY - he changed
his mind - the world is mine.

If it weren't for all those meddling sane people.

DNW
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

bookwyrm55 DeleteThis @mchsi.com (David Niall Wilson) wrote in message news:<537dc661.0403090629.2036cf6c DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
> Sigh.
>
> Don't feed the troll. Don't feed the troll. Don't feed the troll.
>
> Thought I'd drop by one last time to see what the status of things
> might be, and find it much the same as I left it. Feverishly
> manipulated? Feverish, in any case, Mr. B. I can almost picture you
> like one of those old cartoon character villain's twirling a silly
> moustache and rubbing your hands with glee going OH MY - he changed
> his mind - the world is mine.
>
> If it weren't for all those meddling sane people.
>
> DNW

Well, if you are so into imagery, the preposterous image of Chris
Roden running around like Christopher Lloyd from ONE FLEW OVER THE
CUCKOO'S NEST keeps cropping up in my mind's eye.

"Oh my, shall I gnore him - or respond? I'll ignore him. SAY BARKER
YOU TOSSER! YOUR MOTHER IS A BITCH! Oh gee, perhaps I'll ignore him
some more now......say, who fancies going off to Yahoo for some
civilised chat? There's a new Barker thread there.......we can bitch
about him and he can't respond....hey, everybody follow me, I'll be
king for the day.....Whoops, I'm back here in ABGF? How did that
happen?"

NICHOLSON: "Say Bud, you know what they say about the man who gets to
be king for the day? You ever see Wicker Man?"

CB
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........ 

Haunted River wrote:

BTW: I presume this means you weren't bidding on the M R James MSS that came up at a UK auction then?


Why would I bid on that thing? It was a forgery.
 >> Stay informed about: If it's good enough for Ramsey Campbell........