So what happened to Avalon?

Coloradoraider <fmorse.TakeThisOut@pcisys.net> wrote:
 > I remember some passages in the second book about a nuclear terrorist
 > attack in Tehran?

That happened before the colonists left Earth.
Carolyn named one of the grendels chsing her for the woman who did that.
--
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 >> Stay informed about: So what happened to Avalon? 

After finishing Destiny's Road I believe I have come to a theory.

At the beginning of DR Jemmy relates to us as far as the colonists
know, Avalon failed because Earth gradually stopped receiving
transmissions from them.

As I pointed out in my original post, the Avalonians in Beowulf's
Children report exactly the opposite.

However after finishing DR we learn a great deal more about what
happened to Sol System after the Avalon colony was established.
Jeremy reads in The Library about political revolution against the
United Nations (which we know launched the Avalon expedition) and
foundation of a system-wide Hydraulic Empire referred to only as "The
Web". Some 200 years pass before the launch of the colony which would
become Destiny and he seems to imply during that time the government
had more important things to do than launch extra-solar colonies.

I suggest what happened was for the 200 years prior to the Destiny
expedition, there was social upheaval at Sol while The Web established
itself as a dictatorship (Niven's famous "State"?) and either had no
interest in the Avalon colony or more likely no longer had the
technological means to communicate with Avalon.

This explains the abrupt cessation of messages from Earth reported by
the Avalonians in BC, but what about the story related in DR about
Avalon being the first to stop communicating?

Well, I believe The Web, being a Hydraulic Empire (a recurring theme
in Niven's works) recognized that the Avalon colony was forever
outside its control and, being in tune with Niven's assertion that
only outside barbarians can bring down such an empire, would find it
politically more desireable to spread the story that Avalon failed,
rather than admit the truth.

There's also the motivation that a selfish government like The Web (is
there any doubt Niven's "State" is completely selfish?) would never
want to admit a UN colony might be a success while their own colony is
about to be launched?

So, to sum up, I believe what Jeremy's reading and reporting to us in
DR about Avalon has to be taken with a grain of salt. The truth may
be Sol simply lost contact with Avalon during the political upheaval
following the revolution against the UN, or the new dictatorial
government may have decided to put out the story that the colony had
failed as such a story would serve its best interests.

This of course makes me wonder what might happen if someone on Destiny
pointed a laser at Avalon and started transmitting...

Which, of course could be exactly why The Web says Avalon failed.

What do you all think?
 >> Stay informed about: So what happened to Avalon? 

Shucks, nobody has anything to say about my brilliant tretise?



buonomop.RemoveThis@optonline.net (buonomop@optonline.net) wrote in message news:<60f15526.0401191851.7bbf1bc.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>...
 > After finishing Destiny's Road I believe I have come to a theory.
 >
 > At the beginning of DR Jemmy relates to us as far as the colonists
 > know, Avalon failed because Earth gradually stopped receiving
 > transmissions from them.
 >
 > As I pointed out in my original post, the Avalonians in Beowulf's
 > Children report exactly the opposite.
 >
 > However after finishing DR we learn a great deal more about what
 > happened to Sol System after the Avalon colony was established.
 > Jeremy reads in The Library about political revolution against the
 > United Nations (which we know launched the Avalon expedition) and
 > foundation of a system-wide Hydraulic Empire referred to only as "The
 > Web". Some 200 years pass before the launch of the colony which would
 > become Destiny and he seems to imply during that time the government
 > had more important things to do than launch extra-solar colonies.
 >
 > I suggest what happened was for the 200 years prior to the Destiny
 > expedition, there was social upheaval at Sol while The Web established
 > itself as a dictatorship (Niven's famous "State"?) and either had no
 > interest in the Avalon colony or more likely no longer had the
 > technological means to communicate with Avalon.
 >
 > This explains the abrupt cessation of messages from Earth reported by
 > the Avalonians in BC, but what about the story related in DR about
 > Avalon being the first to stop communicating?
 >
 > Well, I believe The Web, being a Hydraulic Empire (a recurring theme
 > in Niven's works) recognized that the Avalon colony was forever
 > outside its control and, being in tune with Niven's assertion that
 > only outside barbarians can bring down such an empire, would find it
 > politically more desireable to spread the story that Avalon failed,
 > rather than admit the truth.
 >
 > There's also the motivation that a selfish government like The Web (is
 > there any doubt Niven's "State" is completely selfish?) would never
 > want to admit a UN colony might be a success while their own colony is
 > about to be launched?
 >
 > So, to sum up, I believe what Jeremy's reading and reporting to us in
 > DR about Avalon has to be taken with a grain of salt. The truth may
 > be Sol simply lost contact with Avalon during the political upheaval
 > following the revolution against the UN, or the new dictatorial
 > government may have decided to put out the story that the colony had
 > failed as such a story would serve its best interests.
 >
 > This of course makes me wonder what might happen if someone on Destiny
 > pointed a laser at Avalon and started transmitting...
 >
 > Which, of course could be exactly why The Web says Avalon failed.
 >
 > What do you all think?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So what happened to Avalon? 

<buonomop RemoveThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
news:60f15526.0402011959.60af930b@posting.google.com...
 > Shucks, nobody has anything to say about my brilliant tretise?
 >
 >
Well, I do.

Well-reasoned, and I concur with your thoughts. While it can't be proven
that The Web is or will be the State later on, one other piece of evidence
is the third expedition, classified, that Jeremy learns about. It seems
clear to me that this was the ship Discipline that settled the Smoke Ring.
The only reason I say that, though, is that they're all slower than light
vessels and that fits in with the whole State universe as started off in
'Rammer'.

That in turn would put 'Rammer' a few years affter DR, because by that time
the State was firmly established and they had the necessary ramscoop
technology to see whether Avalon had failed or not, which they could do
pretty much with impunity as a ramscoop shooting past Tau Ceti could spot
the Avalonians before the Avalonians could do anything about it.

None of this proves that Avalon really survived though. They could've been
wiped out by some kind of super-grendel or anything.

I'm pretty sure that the UN didn't launch National Geographic. I seem to
remember from LOH that it was called Nat Geo after the society that paid for
it.

 > buonomop RemoveThis @optonline.net (buonomop@optonline.net) wrote in message
news:<60f15526.0401191851.7bbf1bc RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
  > > After finishing Destiny's Road I believe I have come to a theory.
  > >
  > > At the beginning of DR Jemmy relates to us as far as the colonists
  > > know, Avalon failed because Earth gradually stopped receiving
  > > transmissions from them.
  > >
  > > As I pointed out in my original post, the Avalonians in Beowulf's
  > > Children report exactly the opposite.
  > >
  > > However after finishing DR we learn a great deal more about what
  > > happened to Sol System after the Avalon colony was established.
  > > Jeremy reads in The Library about political revolution against the
  > > United Nations (which we know launched the Avalon expedition) and
  > > foundation of a system-wide Hydraulic Empire referred to only as "The
  > > Web". Some 200 years pass before the launch of the colony which would
  > > become Destiny and he seems to imply during that time the government
  > > had more important things to do than launch extra-solar colonies.
  > >
  > > I suggest what happened was for the 200 years prior to the Destiny
  > > expedition, there was social upheaval at Sol while The Web established
  > > itself as a dictatorship (Niven's famous "State"?) and either had no
  > > interest in the Avalon colony or more likely no longer had the
  > > technological means to communicate with Avalon.
  > >
  > > This explains the abrupt cessation of messages from Earth reported by
  > > the Avalonians in BC, but what about the story related in DR about
  > > Avalon being the first to stop communicating?
  > >
  > > Well, I believe The Web, being a Hydraulic Empire (a recurring theme
  > > in Niven's works) recognized that the Avalon colony was forever
  > > outside its control and, being in tune with Niven's assertion that
  > > only outside barbarians can bring down such an empire, would find it
  > > politically more desireable to spread the story that Avalon failed,
  > > rather than admit the truth.
  > >
  > > There's also the motivation that a selfish government like The Web (is
  > > there any doubt Niven's "State" is completely selfish?) would never
  > > want to admit a UN colony might be a success while their own colony is
  > > about to be launched?
  > >
  > > So, to sum up, I believe what Jeremy's reading and reporting to us in
  > > DR about Avalon has to be taken with a grain of salt. The truth may
  > > be Sol simply lost contact with Avalon during the political upheaval
  > > following the revolution against the UN, or the new dictatorial
  > > government may have decided to put out the story that the colony had
  > > failed as such a story would serve its best interests.
  > >
  > > This of course makes me wonder what might happen if someone on Destiny
  > > pointed a laser at Avalon and started transmitting...
  > >
  > > Which, of course could be exactly why The Web says Avalon failed.
  > >
  > > What do you all think?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: So what happened to Avalon? 

"D J Rout" <hippy DeleteThis @internode.on.net> wrote in message news:<4020dc67 DeleteThis @duster.adelaide.on.net>...
> While it can't be proven
> that The Web is or will be the State later on, one other piece of evidence
> is the third expedition, classified, that Jeremy learns about. It seems
> clear to me that this was the ship Discipline that settled the Smoke Ring.

That's a very good point. I'm going to have to go back and re-read
that section to see if I can pick up anything to support your point.
 >> Stay informed about: So what happened to Avalon?