What happened to George Orwell?

Poop Dogg <nospam.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:

 > What happened in George Orwell's life to make him so damn dark and
 > gloomy? Not that it's a bad thing, I just love reading and
 > re-reading 1984 (to the point of obsession, I think).

Last year I re-read _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ for the first time in a long
time. I was struck, again, by what a truly frightening book it is.

cheers,

Henry<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

"Henry" <henry999.TakeThisOut@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:1g5qus9.1upa8dc1iys934N%henry999@eircom.net...
 >to the point of obsession, I think).
 >
 > Last year I re-read _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ for the first time in a long
 > time. I was struck, again, by what a truly frightening book it is.
 >
 > cheers,
 >
 > Henry

The other week whilst musing on the amount of doublethink one comes across
and the amount of ideologues one meets; the giant tv screens that are going
to be erected by the Beeb; the wars and rumours of wars; the lottery; the
millionaire socialist government; PC brigade's drives towards Thoughtcrime;
the proles that rot under either of the two parties; the media that ignores
the actuality of everyday life for millions of people; soundbite as
newspeak; the proposed ID cards; the idea of having your credit card details
implanted in your arm; the escalation of of alcoholism and cheap drink; the
virulence of hatred towards tobacco whilst they go soft on street narcotics
(sorry, that comes under doublethink); I thought of it all and thought, yep
Georgie boy, you had it about right.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

"Poop Dogg" <nospam RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote in message
news:fLCdnaGWJ8A6K0uiRVn-vg@bravo.net...
 > What happened in George Orwell's life to make him so damn dark and
 > gloomy? Not that it's a bad thing, I just love reading and
 > re-reading 1984 (to the point of obsession, I think). But it seems
 > that something positively terrible must have happened to him during
 > his life to have given him such a dark imagination. Was he beaten
 > as a child? Tortured during the Spanish Civil War maybe?
 >

He suffered in his education and projected the experience: the british
empire as vicious, dour preparatory school.



 >
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > "'Do not imagine that you will save yourself, Winston, however
 > completely you surrender to us. No one who has once gone astray is
 > ever spared. And even if we chose to let you live out the natural
 > term of your life, still you would never escape from us. What
 > happens to you here is forever. Understand that in advance. We
 > shall crush you down to the point from which there is no coming back.
 > Things will happen to you from which you could not recover, if you
 > lived a thousand years. Never again will you be capable of ordinary
 > human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will
 > you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter,
 > or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We
 > shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves.'"
 > -- George Orwell, "1984," Penguin Books, 1949, p. 211
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > "'There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There
 > will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no
 > laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There
 > will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we
 > shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction
 > between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no
 > employment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be
 > destroyed. But always - do not forget this, Winston - always there
 > will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and
 > constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be
 > the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is
 > helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
 > stamping on a human face - forever.'"
 > -- George Orwell, "1984," Penguin Books, 1949, p. 220
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

 >------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >"'Do not imagine that you will save yourself, Winston, however
 >completely you surrender to us. No one who has once gone astray is
 >ever spared. And even if we chose to let you live out the natural
 >term of your life, still you would never escape from us. What
 >happens to you here is forever.'"
 >

Very reminiscent of Kafka.

--------------------
AN IMPERIAL MESSAGE

The Emperor, so it runs, has sent a message to you, the humble subject,
the insignificant shadow cowering in the remotest distance before the
imperial sun; the Emperor from his deathbed has sent a message to you
alone. He has commanded the messenger to kneel down by the bed, and has
whispered the message to him; so much store did he lay on it that he
ordered the messenger to whisper it back into his ear again. Then by a
nod of the head he has confirmed that it is right. Yes, before the
assembled spectators of his death----all the obstructing walls have been
broken down, and on the spacious and lofty-mounting open staircases
stand in a ring the great princes of the Empire--before all these he has
delivered his message. The messenger immediately sets out on his
journey; a powerful, an indefagitable man; now pushing with his right
arm, now with his left, he cleaves a way for himself through the throng;
if he encounters resistance he points to his breast, where the symbol of
the sun glitters; the way, too is made easier for him than it would be
for any other man. But the multitudes are so vast; their numbers have no
end. If he could reach the open fields how fast he would fly, and soon
doubtless you would hear the welcome hammering of his fists on your
door. But instead how vainly does he wear out his strength; still he is
only making his way through the chambers of the innermost palace; never
will he get to the end of them; and if he succeeded in that nothing
would be gained; he must fight his way next down the stair; and if he
succeeded in that nothing would be gained; the courts would still have
to be crossed; and after the courts the second outer palace; and once
more stairs and courts; and once more another palace; and so on for
thousands of years; and if at last he should burst through the outermost
gate--but never, never can that happen--the imperial capital would lie
before him, the center of the world, crammed to bursting with its own
refuse. Nobody could fight his way through here, least of all one with a
message from a dead man.--But you sit at your window when evening falls
and dream it to yourself.
---------

See also "Before the Law":
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/kafka/beforethelaw.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/kafka/beforethelaw.htm</a>

Alan H.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

Henry wrote:

 > Poop Dogg <nospam RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
 >
  > > What happened in George Orwell's life to make him so damn dark and
  > > gloomy? Not that it's a bad thing, I just love reading and
  > > re-reading 1984 (to the point of obsession, I think).
 >
 > Last year I re-read _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ for the first time in a long
 > time. I was struck, again, by what a truly frightening book it is.

I think this answers whoever's question it was about why PTSD matters in
thinking about Orwell.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

Martha Bridegam wrote:

 >Henry wrote:
 >
 >
 >
  >>Poop Dogg <nospam DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
  >>
  >>
  >>
   >>>What happened in George Orwell's life to make him so damn dark and
   >>>gloomy? Not that it's a bad thing, I just love reading and
   >>>re-reading 1984 (to the point of obsession, I think).
   >>>
   >>>
  >>Last year I re-read _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ for the first time in a long
  >>time. I was struck, again, by what a truly frightening book it is.
  >>
  >>
 >
 >I think this answers whoever's question it was about why PTSD matters in
 >thinking about Orwell.
 >
 >/M
 >
 >

No, I don't think it does. I don't see why positing something like that
is necessary to explain why 1984 is frightening. No one doubts that he
had some bad experiences, and that they had an effect on him.

Alan H.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

Alan Hogue wrote:

 > Martha Bridegam wrote:
 >
  > >Henry wrote:
  > >
  > >
  > >
   > >>Poop Dogg <nospam RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>>What happened in George Orwell's life to make him so damn dark and
   > >>>gloomy? Not that it's a bad thing, I just love reading and
   > >>>re-reading 1984 (to the point of obsession, I think).
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>Last year I re-read _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ for the first time in a long
   > >>time. I was struck, again, by what a truly frightening book it is.
   > >>
   > >>
  > >
  > >I think this answers whoever's question it was about why PTSD matters in
  > >thinking about Orwell.
  > >
  > >/M
  > >
  > >
 >
 > No, I don't think it does. I don't see why positing something like that
 > is necessary to explain why 1984 is frightening. No one doubts that he
 > had some bad experiences, and that they had an effect on him.
 >
 > Alan H.

Well, then, maybe we can agree on that if we don't worry about labels.

But I was interested by this item in the definition of PTSD at
<http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/traumaptsd/a/trauma.htm> that Rachel
posted:

"...sense of a foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career,
marriage, children, or a normal life span)..."

Compare, in SSWTJ:

"...Until I was about thirty I always planned my life on the assumption not
only that any major undertaking was bound to fail, but that I could only
expect to live a few years longer."

That's really a strange thing to say. His health before 1937 didn't justify
it.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

Martha Bridegam wrote:

 >Alan Hogue wrote:
 >
 >
 >
  >>Martha Bridegam wrote:
  >>
  >>
  >>
   >>>Henry wrote:
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>>Poop Dogg <nospam.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>>What happened in George Orwell's life to make him so damn dark and
   >>>>>gloomy? Not that it's a bad thing, I just love reading and
   >>>>>re-reading 1984 (to the point of obsession, I think).
   >>>>>
   >>>>>
   >>>>>
   >>>>>
   >>>>Last year I re-read _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ for the first time in a long
   >>>>time. I was struck, again, by what a truly frightening book it is.
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>I think this answers whoever's question it was about why PTSD matters in
   >>>thinking about Orwell.
   >>>
   >>>/M
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
  >>No, I don't think it does. I don't see why positing something like that
  >>is necessary to explain why 1984 is frightening. No one doubts that he
  >>had some bad experiences, and that they had an effect on him.
  >>
  >>Alan H.
  >>
  >>
 >
 >Well, then, maybe we can agree on that if we don't worry about labels.
 >
 >But I was interested by this item in the definition of PTSD at
 ><http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/traumaptsd/a/trauma.htm> that Rachel
 >posted:
 >
 >"...sense of a foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career,
 >marriage, children, or a normal life span)..."
 >
 >Compare, in SSWTJ:
 >
 >"...Until I was about thirty I always planned my life on the assumption not
 >only that any major undertaking was bound to fail, but that I could only
 >expect to live a few years longer."
 >
 >That's really a strange thing to say. His health before 1937 didn't justify
 >it.
 >
 >/M
 >
 >

That's an interesting parallel, but I don't think it's all that strange.
I know people -- mostly tall skinny types -- who are a bit hypochondriac
and I know many people who have low self-esteem and expect failure. None
of them, AFAIK, have experienced anything unusually traumatic. Either
way he was an unusual person, and not only for reasons, I think, that
you could trace to any syndrome.

It seems like you're having fun looking for evidence to support your
theory, and that's fine, but I don't think PTSD is simply a label for a
certain set of symptoms. If it were, it wouldn't matter that this is a
typical example of confirmation bias.

(BTW, the page on PTSD you linked to claims that EMDR can help PTSD
sufferers. EMDR is something of a fraud, like a lot of psychological
fads. See: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://skepdic.com/emdr.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/emdr.html</a>)

Anyway, here are some thoughts on the DSM-IV criteria for PTSD, which are seemingly reprinted in their entirety at the link you posted above:

"1. The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following were present:

"the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others

"the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror. Note: In children, this may be expressed instead by disorganized or agitated behavior"

The second seems problematic to me. Not only in Orwell's own accounts of the Spanish war, but in others' accounts of him, I can't think of any evidence that he experienced "intense fear, helplessness, or horror". You've suggested that maybe the event occurred earlier, but can you suggest any event that we know of that would fit this criterion? (I've looked around in a lot of your earlier posts, but didn't see this addressed.)

As for the second set of criteria, the only one that seems to fit is "recurrent distressing dreams of the event." AFAIK, we do not have any idea what his nightmares were about. As far as all the others, such as "acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions, hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes, including those that occur on awakening or when intoxicated)", which I'm guessing might be were the comment about the level of detail in H to C came from, it seems unlikely to me that Orwell could have written so coolly about it all if, as he wrote it, he were vividly reliving an intensely traumatic event. Particularly when you consider the third set of criteria:

"3. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by three (or more) of the following: efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma"

Finally, it seems to me that it's overstating the case to characterize Orwell the way the sixth criterion characterizes PTSD sufferers:

"6. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

Alan H.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Martha Bridegam wrote:

>
>
> Alan Hogue wrote:
>

>> Anyway, here are some thoughts on the DSM-IV criteria for PTSD,
>> which are seemingly reprinted in their entirety at the link you
>> posted above:
>>
>> "1. The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of
>> the following were present:
>>
>> "the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event
>> or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury,
>> or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others
>>
>> "the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or
>> horror. Note: In children, this may be expressed instead by
>> disorganized or agitated behavior"
>>
>> The second seems problematic to me. Not only in Orwell's own accounts
>> of the Spanish war, but in others' accounts of him, I can't think of
>> any evidence that he experienced "intense fear, helplessness, or horror".
>>
> No? Have you reread H to C recently?


No, I haven't, and thanks for the reminders. But it still seems to me
that his experiences were mostly on the tame side for being in a war.
I'd stand in for him in Spain any day rather than having been an
infantryman in Vietnam. So, it seems to me, if we can reasonably assume
that his time there was sufficient to cause PTSD, then I guess that
would have to mean that PTSD is an extremely common syndrome.

And, of course, if you suppose that the trauma that triggered it
occurred in Spain, you can't use his nightmares in Burma as evidence for
PTSD. But that's confirmation bias for you.

>> You've suggested that maybe the event occurred earlier, but can you
>> suggest any event that we know of that would fit this criterion?
>> (I've looked around in a lot of your earlier posts, but didn't see
>> this addressed.)
>
> Well, there is SSWTJ, but as Stansky says he may have been
> overstating. Well, we don't have a transcript of everything that
> happened in the guy's early life. All we have is the after-evidence of
> familiarity with trauma.

I can't accept, based on what I've read, that "familiarity with trauma"
is compelling evidence that someone had PTSD. It sounds like you are
assuming that anyone who has had any traumatic experiences in their life
has PTSD, or that anyone who prefers working in crisis environments, or
people who are brave, or people who have compassion for others, and so on.


>> As for the second set of criteria, the only one that seems to fit
>> is "recurrent distressing dreams of the event." AFAIK, we do not have
>> any idea what his nightmares were about. As far as all the others,
>> such as "acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring
>> (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions,
>> hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes, including those
>> that occur on awakening or when intoxicated)", which I'm guessing
>> might be were the comment about the level of detail in H to C came
>> from, it seems unlikely to me that Orwell could have written so
>> coolly about it all if, as he wrote it, he were vividly reliving an
>> intensely traumatic event. Particularly when you consider the third
>> set of criteria:
>>
>> "3. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and
>> numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as
>> indicated by three (or more) of the following: efforts to avoid
>> thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma"
>>
> Do you know anyone who has been in a war?


Yes, but I don't want to get into that.

Alan H.
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

Martha Bridegam wrote:

>Alan Hogue wrote:
>
>
>
>>...
>>
>>
>>>No? Have you reread H to C recently?
>>>
>>>
>>No, I haven't, and thanks for the reminders. But it still seems to me
>>that his experiences were mostly on the tame side for being in a war.
>>I'd stand in for him in Spain any day rather than having been an
>>infantryman in Vietnam. So, it seems to me, if we can reasonably assume
>>that his time there was sufficient to cause PTSD, then I guess that
>>would have to mean that PTSD is an extremely common syndrome.
>>
>>
>
>Yes. According to some people at least. I'm sure definitions vary. But it's one
>of the problems we have on this planet.
>
>
>
>>[etc.]
>>

It seems to me that your evidence is slimmer than you make it out to be,
but it will never be anything more than speculation in any case. Have
any biographers or other experts given serious consideration to this
idea as of yet?

Alan H.
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

Alan Hogue wrote:

> Martha Bridegam wrote:
>
> >Alan Hogue wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>...
> >>
> >>
> >>>No? Have you reread H to C recently?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>No, I haven't, and thanks for the reminders. But it still seems to me
> >>that his experiences were mostly on the tame side for being in a war.
> >>I'd stand in for him in Spain any day rather than having been an
> >>infantryman in Vietnam. So, it seems to me, if we can reasonably assume
> >>that his time there was sufficient to cause PTSD, then I guess that
> >>would have to mean that PTSD is an extremely common syndrome.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Yes. According to some people at least. I'm sure definitions vary. But it's one
> >of the problems we have on this planet.
> >
> >
> >
> >>[etc.]
> >>
>
> It seems to me that your evidence is slimmer than you make it out to be,
> but it will never be anything more than speculation in any case. Have
> any biographers or other experts given serious consideration to this
> idea as of yet?
>
> Alan H.

Good question. I don't know. Anyway, as you've noticed, I'm basing this partly on
unverifiable bellyfeel. But that quote about the sympathetic shudder when talking
with Kopp is certainly suggestive.

/M
 >> Stay informed about: What happened to George Orwell? 

I THINK LIKE KING IN HIS BOOK THE STAND QRWELL SIMPLY LOOKED AT THE
RULING POWER OF THE TIME WHITCH WAS TE BRITISH EMPIRE AND FOLLOWED THE
LINE TO IT`S LOGICAL CONCLSION YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT ABSOLOTE
POWER ANY LOOK AT OUR GOVERMENTS ACTIONS TODAY BIG BROTHER HOMLAND
SECURITY
MINERSRY OF MISINFORMATION FOX DOUBLE SPEAK PRES BUSH SAME DIFFRENCE
ALL EMPIRES ACT ALIKE THAT WHAT MOTIVATED ORWELL NOT CHILDHOOD TRAUMA
NEED PROOF READ ANIMAL FARM
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