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Next: Larry Niven: How plausible are the Pak Protector changes in Humans?
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Since: Jan 25, 2004 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:00 pm
Post subject: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in Protector,
Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
footing".
In the last Ringworld book, Louis Wu recalls Home being a "failed colony
world".
Okay, the Pak set up shop and Home seemed to be "lost" to the rest the Known
Space, which is a GOOD thing because Truesdale wants the Pak scouts to fight it
out at Home and not back on Earth where all of his family is. From Pak
/Truedales point of view, its a great plan.
OK, known space isnt over-run with Pak looking to weed us out, so we assume
Roy and his army won, and the Pak were killed. Now...isnt there a whole race of
carnivore cats called the Kzin that very well may wipe out humanity, and thus
the children of every Pak on Home? Each pak has relatives either on Home,
earth, elsewhere in Known Space or all THREE, whioch is a great motivator for
the Pak to go up against the Kzin. Remember, no free will in a Pak Protector:
Roy would see the Kzin coming at earth again and again, and would he risk some
silly pak breeders to defend in gene line? Nope, no way. Thus, Roy the Pak or
any other Pak in Known Space should be contemplating killing off all the Kzin,
just as Brennan Monster/Vandervecken killed the Martians.
So..how come an army of Pak arent on the way to the Kzin homeworld to kill
off every last Kzin, Kzinrett and cub?
Hmmm, I guess the answer would be "who says they arent?"
Schnick >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Jan 25, 2004 Posts: 29
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 25 Jan 2004 20:00:01 GMT, bertschnik RemoveThis @aol.com (BertSchnik) wrote:
>
>
> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in Protector,
>Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
>footing".
>
> In the last Ringworld book, Louis Wu recalls Home being a "failed colony
>world".
>
> Okay, the Pak set up shop and Home seemed to be "lost" to the rest the Known
>Space, which is a GOOD thing because Truesdale wants the Pak scouts to fight it
>out at Home and not back on Earth where all of his family is. From Pak
>/Truedales point of view, its a great plan.
>
> OK, known space isnt over-run with Pak looking to weed us out, so we assume
>Roy and his army won, and the Pak were killed. Now...isnt there a whole race of
>carnivore cats called the Kzin that very well may wipe out humanity, and thus
>the children of every Pak on Home? Each pak has relatives either on Home,
>earth, elsewhere in Known Space or all THREE, whioch is a great motivator for
>the Pak to go up against the Kzin. Remember, no free will in a Pak Protector:
>Roy would see the Kzin coming at earth again and again, and would he risk some
>silly pak breeders to defend in gene line? Nope, no way. Thus, Roy the Pak or
>any other Pak in Known Space should be contemplating killing off all the Kzin,
>just as Brennan Monster/Vandervecken killed the Martians.
>
> So..how come an army of Pak arent on the way to the Kzin homeworld to kill
>off every last Kzin, Kzinrett and cub?
>
> Hmmm, I guess the answer would be "who says they arent?"
Possibly, but if you look at the time line in "Tales of known Space",
you can see that "Vandervecken" (the second half of "Protector") takes
place around 2340, and "The Warriors" in 2360.
Having said that, the list of events for the 2300s is given as:
- Home colonized
- Brennan in Sol cometary halo
- War with Pak scout ships
- First flyby of BVS-1
- First contact with Kzinti
- First Man-Kzin War
- Institute of Knowledge on Jinx tailors boosterspice
- Home colony fails
You could argue that the Kzin were known about before the Home was
abandoned, but I would counter that with the reality of STL
communication between Earth and the colonies.
So I think it's quite possible that Brennan, Truesdale, Home and
therefore the Home Protectors had no knowledge of the Kzinti when they
set off to tackle the Pak fleet.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: May 24, 2004 Posts: 42
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <20040125150001.28443.00000676.TakeThisOut@mb-m01.aol.com>,
BertSchnik <bertschnik.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in Protector,
>Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
>footing".
>
> In the last Ringworld book, Louis Wu recalls Home being a "failed colony
>world".
>
> Okay, the Pak set up shop and Home seemed to be "lost" to the rest the Known
>Space, which is a GOOD thing because Truesdale wants the Pak scouts to fight it
>out at Home and not back on Earth where all of his family is. From Pak
>/Truedales point of view, its a great plan.
>
> OK, known space isnt over-run with Pak looking to weed us out, so we assume
>Roy and his army won, and the Pak were killed. Now...isnt there a whole race of
>carnivore cats called the Kzin that very well may wipe out humanity, and thus
>the children of every Pak on Home? Each pak has relatives either on Home,
>earth, elsewhere in Known Space or all THREE, whioch is a great motivator for
>the Pak to go up against the Kzin. Remember, no free will in a Pak Protector:
>Roy would see the Kzin coming at earth again and again, and would he risk some
>silly pak breeders to defend in gene line? Nope, no way. Thus, Roy the Pak or
>any other Pak in Known Space should be contemplating killing off all the Kzin,
>just as Brennan Monster/Vandervecken killed the Martians.
>
> So..how come an army of Pak arent on the way to the Kzin homeworld to kill
>off every last Kzin, Kzinrett and cub?
>
> Hmmm, I guess the answer would be "who says they arent?"
Or the two fleets successfully wiped each other out.
Or the Outsiders did it, on the grounds that Pak make terrible
customers.
--
"Precepts of religion. Every victory is a defeat. Every cut made is a wound
received. Every strength is a weakness. Every time you kill, you die."
In which case, he thought, clawing briars from in front of his face, the
enemy must be taking a right pounding, the poor buggers. [Memory, K.J. Parker]<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Mar 11, 2004 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:15 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<snip>
Now see? you make posts folks respond to. <grumble> <grumble> ;])
One thing to consider is the differences between a original Mark 1 Pak
and the later Human derived version.
Original breeders were pretty much mindless uh, breeders, only gaining
sentience upon undergoing the change to Protector. (Key symphonic music).
On the other hand Humans have a (n increased?) brain capacity that
should relate to a brainier Protector Mark Two version.
The result might be a Protector that thinks things out even more, beyond
the impulsive level of "save my tribe above all other considerations".
This might allow for the tailoring of K'Zinti behavior to the later
lessening of 'Scream then Leap' aggressiveness.
Niven himself was, I believe, quoted as saying inventing a protagonist
that was smarter than the author was a devilment he could have lived
without (I paraphrase).
TBerk >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Jan 25, 2004 Posts: 29
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:15:11 GMT, T <tberk.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
><snip>
>
>Now see? you make posts folks respond to. <grumble> <grumble> ;])
>
<snip why human protectors are smarter>
>The result might be a Protector that thinks things out even more, beyond
>the impulsive level of "save my tribe above all other considerations".
>This might allow for the tailoring of K'Zinti behavior to the later
>lessening of 'Scream then Leap' aggressiveness.
Brennan still exterminated the Martians though.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Jan 27, 2004 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:20:19 +0000, Darren J Longhorn <me.DeleteThis@privacy.net>
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:15:11 GMT, T <tberk.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>
>>Now see? you make posts folks respond to. <grumble> <grumble> ;])
>>
>
>
><snip why human protectors are smarter>
>
>>The result might be a Protector that thinks things out even more, beyond
>>the impulsive level of "save my tribe above all other considerations".
>>This might allow for the tailoring of K'Zinti behavior to the later
>>lessening of 'Scream then Leap' aggressiveness.
>
>Brennan still exterminated the Martians though.
The Puppeteers already tried to breed a more "docile" Kzin, with only
partial success. The more agressive Kzin were wiped out in the
Man-Kzin wars. Which the Puppeteers made sure that Humans won by
luring a Starseed, with Outsiders following, to the Human colony which
built the first Human Hyperdrive ships. This was all revealed in The
Ringworld Engineers.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Mar 11, 2004 Posts: 87
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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GB wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:20:19 +0000, Darren J Longhorn <me RemoveThis @privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:15:11 GMT, T <tberk RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Now see? you make posts folks respond to. <grumble> <grumble> ;])
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>><snip why human protectors are smarter>
>>
>>>The result might be a Protector that thinks things out even more, beyond
>>>the impulsive level of "save my tribe above all other considerations".
>>>This might allow for the tailoring of K'Zinti behavior to the later
>>>lessening of 'Scream then Leap' aggressiveness.
>>
>>Brennan still exterminated the Martians though.
>
>
> The Puppeteers already tried to breed a more "docile" Kzin, with only
> partial success. The more agressive Kzin were wiped out in the
> Man-Kzin wars. Which the Puppeteers made sure that Humans won by
> luring a Starseed, with Outsiders following, to the Human colony which
> built the first Human Hyperdrive ships. This was all revealed in The
> Ringworld Engineers.
I remember, I remember. I was just thinking the Flying Dutchman might
have not needed to fully exterminate the Kzinti as unwaveringly as the
Original PAK Protectors would.
TBerk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2004 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Now I remember a short story though no one else do's about how Truesdale
came back to the belt long enough to set up the defences that stopped the
first Kzinti attack on sol with the help of one of his descendants who he
left in charge while he returned to the human protector fleet who had agreed
not to return to known space knowing they could not help meddling. except in
this one case of sending Truesdale when they learnt of the Kzinti and knew
sol had nothing to defend then selves with which is why the Kzinti got so
badly mauled when they attracted
"T" <tberk RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:RO6Sb.19227$tu4.9221@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> GB wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:20:19 +0000, Darren J Longhorn <me RemoveThis @privacy.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:15:11 GMT, T <tberk RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>><snip>
> >>>
> >>>Now see? you make posts folks respond to. <grumble> <grumble> ;])
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >><snip why human protectors are smarter>
> >>
> >>>The result might be a Protector that thinks things out even more,
beyond
> >>>the impulsive level of "save my tribe above all other considerations".
> >>>This might allow for the tailoring of K'Zinti behavior to the later
> >>>lessening of 'Scream then Leap' aggressiveness.
> >>
> >>Brennan still exterminated the Martians though.
> >
> >
> > The Puppeteers already tried to breed a more "docile" Kzin, with only
> > partial success. The more agressive Kzin were wiped out in the
> > Man-Kzin wars. Which the Puppeteers made sure that Humans won by
> > luring a Starseed, with Outsiders following, to the Human colony which
> > built the first Human Hyperdrive ships. This was all revealed in The
> > Ringworld Engineers.
>
>
> I remember, I remember. I was just thinking the Flying Dutchman might
> have not needed to fully exterminate the Kzinti as unwaveringly as the
> Original PAK Protectors would.
>
>
> TBerk
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Feb 23, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:45 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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bertschnik.DeleteThis@aol.com (BertSchnik) wrote in
news:20040125150001.28443.00000676@mb-m01.aol.com:
>
>
> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in
> Protector,
> Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a
> war footing".
>
See this 2000 thread for my thoughts on the matter
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-</a>
8&safe=off&th=c617b6055686be32&seekm=3A33BB77%40MailAndNews.com#link1
--
-Hk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 25
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Truesdale stated in the end of the book that his war fleet was going to head
core-ward to make sure they eliminated all of the PAK, not just the scouts
but all of the colony fleets as well.
"BertSchnik" <bertschnik DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040125150001.28443.00000676@mb-m01.aol.com...
>
>
> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in
Protector,
> Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
> footing".
>
> In the last Ringworld book, Louis Wu recalls Home being a "failed colony
> world".
>
> Okay, the Pak set up shop and Home seemed to be "lost" to the rest the
Known
> Space, which is a GOOD thing because Truesdale wants the Pak scouts to
fight it
> out at Home and not back on Earth where all of his family is. From Pak
> /Truedales point of view, its a great plan.
>
> OK, known space isnt over-run with Pak looking to weed us out, so we
assume
> Roy and his army won, and the Pak were killed. Now...isnt there a whole
race of
> carnivore cats called the Kzin that very well may wipe out humanity, and
thus
> the children of every Pak on Home? Each pak has relatives either on Home,
> earth, elsewhere in Known Space or all THREE, whioch is a great motivator
for
> the Pak to go up against the Kzin. Remember, no free will in a Pak
Protector:
> Roy would see the Kzin coming at earth again and again, and would he risk
some
> silly pak breeders to defend in gene line? Nope, no way. Thus, Roy the Pak
or
> any other Pak in Known Space should be contemplating killing off all the
Kzin,
> just as Brennan Monster/Vandervecken killed the Martians.
>
> So..how come an army of Pak arent on the way to the Kzin homeworld to
kill
> off every last Kzin, Kzinrett and cub?
>
> Hmmm, I guess the answer would be "who says they arent?"
>
> Schnick<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Mar 07, 2004 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Yeah, Truesdale said that...but with a planetfull of newly formed Pak
protectors, many with children/relatives back on Earth, SOME would have stayed
or even went Earthward. Not all would go to fight the Scouts, that would leave
no chance for the kids back at home to be defended if they lost and the Scouts
won >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Jul 12, 2003 Posts: 19
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 4:05 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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BertSchnik wrote:
> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in Protector,
> Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
> footing".
All this was answered in one of the Man-Kzin Wars series. The Puppeteers
are maintaining a balance among various races that might threaten them.
If the Kzinti died out, humans might get too strong. Can't have that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: May 25, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:48 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Do the Pak differentiate between different species? I was under the
impression that they try and protect all sentient life.
-Benjamin
John David Galt wrote:
> BertSchnik wrote:
>
>> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in Protector,
>>Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
>>footing".
>
>
> All this was answered in one of the Man-Kzin Wars series. The Puppeteers
> are maintaining a balance among various races that might threaten them.
> If the Kzinti died out, humans might get too strong. Can't have that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Nov 14, 2003 Posts: 929
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:26 am
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Benjamin Klahn" <code.mage RemoveThis @prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:_lzsc.209$n65.129@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Do the Pak differentiate between different species? I was under the
> impression that they try and protect all sentient life.
LOL! No, the Pak protect only their *own* descendents. They don't
protect anyone else's descendents.
Have a great day!
Ernest
_____________________
"In the begining there was nothing, then God said, "Let there be
light"... and there was still nothing, but you could see it."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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Since: Feb 11, 2004 Posts: 22
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:05:44 -0700, John David Galt
<jdg.RemoveThis@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
>BertSchnik wrote:
>> Why havent the Pak made the Kzinti race extinct? Last we saw in Protector,
>> Roy Truesdale had recruited an army and was going to have Home on " a war
>> footing".
>
>All this was answered in one of the Man-Kzin Wars series. The Puppeteers
>are maintaining a balance among various races that might threaten them.
>If the Kzinti died out, humans might get too strong. Can't have that.
In Pak vs. Puppeteers fight, my money is on the Pak.
Could the Puppeteers prevent the PakRoy from exterminating the Kzinti?
And then the Puppeteers?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Why havent the Pak killed the Kzinti? |
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