Which gods inspired the Valar

On Jun 5, 2:45 pm, Dirk Thierbach <dthierb....DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de>
wrote:
> Sid Eles <pavlovevide....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Which gods do you think are the inspiration for various Valar?
>
> I think it's more a certain "role" rather than a concrete god.

What, that JRRT was inspired by only their roles, or that the Valar
are only comparable to gods by their role? I don't really agree with
either. The question of what role the Valar represent is a valid--if
mundane--question, but it wasn't really the one I was asking. I was
thinking about kind of an overall comparison, including personality,
role, appearance, strength, and anything else.

[snip accurate list of roles Valar represent]
[wherever there is disagreement, my standard response is, I was also
considering personality]

> > Female Valar are problematic because female gods are all
> > either chaste virgins or sluts, so they are hard to find similarities.
>
> You're not serious, are you?

What, of course I am. I can't think of one counterexample in Greek
Pantheon--at least among major gods--and among Norse godesses only
Frigg isn't all that extreme (which is questionable itself, since some
consider Frigg and Freya to be originally the same godesses, who
diverged and ended up as two different godesses).

None of the Valier were sluts, and the only chaste one isn't like any
god I can think of.


Carl Banks
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

Sid Eles <pavlovevidence RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Which gods do you think are the inspiration for various Valar?

I think it's more a certain "role" rather than a concrete god.

> I listed my thoughts here, where I'm focusing on the Greek, Roman,
> and Norse pantheons, but feel free to suggest others.

And those Gods of course are often based also on a certain "role".

> Ulmo = Poseidon (of course)
God of Water

> Manwe = Saturn
God of Air (so not really Saturn, and in the role as leader of the Valar
closer to Juppiter)

> Varda = Frigg
Goddess of Stars. In what way do you think she is equivalent to Frigg?

> Mandos = Death a.k.a. the Grim Reaper
God of Death

> Vaire = The Fates
Goddess of History/Fate

> Tulkas = Thor (minus the hammer)
God of Strength

> None of the rest of the Valar seem to correspond too closely to
> anyone.

Aule = God of Crafting

Yavanna = Goddess of Fertility

Lorien = God of Dreams

Nienna = Goddess of Grief

Orome = God of Hunting

> Female Valar are problematic because female gods are all
> either chaste virgins or sluts, so they are hard to find similarities.

You're not serious, are you?

> If I had to go with Greek/Roman/Norse, I'd say Yavanna is pretty close
> to Apollo, and that's not even that much of a gender stretch.

No, Apollo is the God of Poetry (among other things). Demeter/Ceres is
the fertitility goddess, and in that role the equivalent of Yavanna.
For the Norse Gods, that would be Freya.

> Orome = cross between Artemis, Hermes, and Prometheus
And Artemis/Diana matches the "Hunting" part best. There's no real
"Messenger" among the Valar, and certainly no Prometheus.

> Aule = Vulcan, insofar as they both like to build stuff.
Yep.

> Personalities don't match, though.
And the personalities don't really match for the others, as well.

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

On 2008-06-05, Sid Eles <pavlovevidence DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 2:45 pm, Dirk Thierbach <dthierb... DeleteThis @usenet.arcornews.de>
> wrote:
>> Sid Eles <pavlovevide... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>> > Female Valar are problematic because female gods are all
>> > either chaste virgins or sluts, so they are hard to find similarities.
>>
>> You're not serious, are you?
>
> What, of course I am. I can't think of one counterexample in Greek
> Pantheon--at least among major gods--and among Norse godesses only
> Frigg isn't all that extreme (which is questionable itself, since some
> consider Frigg and Freya to be originally the same godesses, who
> diverged and ended up as two different godesses).

Hera, Persephone, Rhea, for Greek goddesses who were neither 'virgins' nor
'sluts'.

> None of the Valier were sluts, and the only chaste one isn't like any
> god I can think of.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

On Jun 6, 11:38 am, Dirk Thierbach <dthierb... RemoveThis @usenet.arcornews.de>
wrote:
> Sid Eles <pavlovevide... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 6, 1:53 am, Dirk Thierbach <dthierb... RemoveThis @usenet.arcornews.de>
> > But other Valar have developed personalities, and, however
> > detestable it may be to you, those ought to factor into overall
> > comparisons.
>
> It's not "detestable" to me, but so far I haven't seen any example
> that the personalities actually match in any way.
>
> > Comparisons should include all available information.
>
> And if you insist on comparing all aspects, they may very well end
> up with the conclusion that there's no match.

Exact match, no. Closest match, yes.


[snip]
> No one gave me the "authority". But if you really insist that you can
> somehow measure the "strength" of Gods, and that it makes sense to
> compare them in this respect, then I guess we can stop this discussion
> now.

JRRT and the ancients spoke about strength--power, if you like that
word better--quite a bit. It's a valid basis for comparison.


> >> For "appearance", as the Valar could "clothe" themselves
> >> with any body they like, I don't think that is very interesting, either.
> >> One can find instances where appearance may have inspired JRRT (for
> >> example, Gandalf is somewhat similar to Odin in appearance and "style"),
> >> but that's certainly not a one-to-one correspondence.
> > Who said it had to be a one-to-one correspondence?
>
> Didn't you say that one has to match all aspects?

No, and I don't know where in the hell you got that idea.

What would be the point of that? If someone is similar in all
respects is would be the same person. I'm looking for comparable
characters, not exact matches. Can you try, just try, to see this as
something other than black and white? That not every match has to be
exact? That there could be a reasonable partial match?

And if you can't, can you at least stop criticizing me for wondering
about it myself?


> > My rule is, if JRRT wrote about it, and the ancients wrote about it,
> > it's a valid basis for comparison.
>
> So now you have the authority to set rules?

I asked the question, buddy.

You don't want to answer? Fine.

You want to answer a different question than I asked? Fine. And when
you did that I treated your opinions not as "wrong" but as the
"correct answer to a different question".

You want to tell me it was wrong for me to ask the question, well I
have a problem with it.

You don't seem to have the same respect for my having asked a
different question than you wanted to answer, than I had for your
answering a question I didn't ask.


[snip]
> > Fair criticism, but I wasn't saying I should rule them out, I was
> > saying it was a tricky aspect to match.
>
> You really should decide if you want to match all aspects, or if
> you only pick those that happen to much by chance

No, quit being obtuse. You know that's not the only two options here.


> Guess we should EOT this discussion, I don't see it going anywhere.

Let's. Feel free to start your own thread about a narrow comparison
of roles, which I wouldn't bother with, but neither would I come in
and criticize you for starting it.



Carl Banks
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

Sid Eles wrote:
> Which gods do you think are the inspiration for various Valar? I
> listed my thoughts here, where I'm focusing on the Greek, Roman, and
> Norse pantheons, but feel free to suggest others.
>
> The easy ones:
>
> Ulmo = Poseidon (of course)
>
> Manwe = Saturn
>
> Varda = Frigg
>
> Mandos = Death a.k.a. the Grim Reaper
>
> Vaire = The Fates
>
> Tulkas = Thor (minus the hammer)
>
> None of the rest of the Valar seem to correspond too closely to
> anyone. Female Valar are problematic because female gods are all
> either chaste virgins or sluts, so they are hard to find similarities.
>
> Yavanna actually strikes me as similar to The Goddess (of Wicca). So
> maybe, since Wicca draws upon traditions such as Druidism, Yavanna is
> is inspired by some Druidic or Celtic goddess? But I don't know a lot
> about those religions.
>
> If I had to go with Greek/Roman/Norse, I'd say Yavanna is pretty close
> to Apollo, and that's not even that much of a gender stretch.
>
> Orome = cross between Artemis, Hermes, and Prometheus
>
> Aule = Vulcan, insofar as they both like to build stuff.
> Personalities don't match, though.
>
>
> Sid

In Greek mythology, Thanatos and Hypnos -- the gods of Death and of
Sleep, respectively -- were brothers. There's an obvious analogy with
the Fëanturi; let me quote the relevant passage from the /Valaquenta/:

The Fëanturi, masters of spirits, are brethren, and they are
called most often Mandos and Lórien. Yet these are rightly the
names of the places of their dwelling, and their true names are
Námo and Irmo.

Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor.
He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of
the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all
things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the
freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he
pronounces his dooms and his judgements only at the bidding of
Manwë. Vairë the Weaver is his spouse, who weaves all things
that have ever been in Time into her storied webs, and the halls
of Mandos that ever widen as the ages pass are clothed with them.

Irmo the younger is the master of visions and dreams. In Lórien
are his gardens in the land of the Valar, and they are the
fairest of all places in the world, filled with many spirits.
Estë the gentle, healer of hurts and of weariness, is his spouse.
Grey is her raiment; and rest is her gift. She walks not by day,
but sleeps upon an island in the tree-shadowed lake of Lórellin.
From the fountains of Irmo and Estë all those who dwell in
Valinor draw refreshment; and often the Valar come themselves
to Lórien and there find repose and easing of the burden of Arda.

Though this analogy holds only with respect to their roles and not
their character.

There is also a correspondence between the three Norse sea-gods
and the trio of Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen, as discussed a couple of
years ago in the thread " Valar and Norse god of the Sea"; see
the archive at http://preview.tinyurl.com/6hp8jp and especially
Raven's post http://preview.tinyurl.com/5h6d8j for comparison
between them and Ægir, Njörd and Ran.
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

Sid Eles <pavlovevidence.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 6, 1:53 am, Dirk Thierbach <dthierb....RemoveThis@usenet.arcornews.de>

> But other Valar have developed personalities, and, however
> detestable it may be to you, those ought to factor into overall
> comparisons.

It's not "detestable" to me, but so far I haven't seen any example
that the personalities actually match in any way.

> Comparisons should include all available information.

And if you insist on comparing all aspects, they may very well end
up with the conclusion that there's no match.

>> And apart from the role, I don't see a lot of similarities with other
>> concrete gods.

> I don't agree. Mandos really acts like the Death we all know and
> love.

Which "Death" are you talking about? The one from Pratchett? It's been
some time since I read Pratchett, but Mandos doesn't talk in capital
letters, doesn't show up personally to "collect" people, and isn't,
hm, cynical either. He doesn't act like Hades/Pluto either, and at the
moment I cannot think of any Norse Death-God.

Could you please give a concrete example where Mandos and "Death"
act alike?

> Ulmo acts like Poseidon in addition to living in the sea.

Same here: Could you please give a concrete example where Ulmo and
Poseidon act similarly? For example, "Ulmo loves both Elves and Men,
and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of
the Valar". That's a very important personality aspect of Ulmo.
What would be the story that exhibits the corresponding aspect of
the personality of Poseidon?

> For Varda the most notable aspect of her personality is "queenly",

Well, that doesn't go much beyond "role"

> which is shared most closely by Frigg.

Or Hera, if you reduce it to that role.

>> "Strength" isn't really a valid category to compare them (this is not
>> an RPG).

> Who gave you the authority to decide what's a valid basis for
> comparison.

No one gave me the "authority". But if you really insist that you can
somehow measure the "strength" of Gods, and that it makes sense to
compare them in this respect, then I guess we can stop this discussion
now.

> For an overall comparison, taking all available factors into account,
> strength is important to consider. The strongest Valar compare better
> to the strongest gods.

Then please state the "strength" of some of the Valar. What's the
"strength" of Mandos? Or Melkor? Or Varda?

>> For "appearance", as the Valar could "clothe" themselves
>> with any body they like, I don't think that is very interesting, either.
>> One can find instances where appearance may have inspired JRRT (for
>> example, Gandalf is somewhat similar to Odin in appearance and "style"),
>> but that's certainly not a one-to-one correspondence.

> Who said it had to be a one-to-one correspondence?

Didn't you say that one has to match all aspects?

> My rule is, if JRRT wrote about it, and the ancients wrote about it,
> it's a valid basis for comparison.

So now you have the authority to set rules? Anyway, I don't think
there's that much source material to go on. We don't have a very
accurate description of even the "favorite" hroar of the Valar, and
I can't think of any detailed description of the Greek/Roman Gods, either.

So what results do you imagine, beyond "Tulkas had a beard, and Jupiter
had a beard, so they must be similar?"

>> Then I think we should start with some conrete description where you
>> think their personality matches -- as far as I can see, the personalities
>> differ a lot in many aspects.

> I'm not saying that the personalities are an exact match, but there
> are aspects of their personalities that are similar.

Well, if you pick and choose, you can find similarities everywhere.
Give me two random groups of a dozen people each and I can point out
aspects of their personalities that are similar. Does that mean that
they "inspired" each other?

> Fair criticism, but I wasn't saying I should rule them out, I was
> saying it was a tricky aspect to match.

You really should decide if you want to match all aspects, or if
you only pick those that happen to much by chance

Guess we should EOT this discussion, I don't see it going anywhere.

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

In message
<news:20080606153836.2220.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.RemoveThis@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
>
> Sid Eles <pavlovevidence.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> Comparisons should include all available information.
>
> And if you insist on comparing all aspects, they may very well end
> up with the conclusion that there's no match.

Another conclusion which would be just as wrong as the conclusion
that there is a match (even a 'best match')

Each of the Valar obviously derive some aspects from other
mytologies, but none of them have inherited from just one other god
and none of them have inherited everything: in every Vala and Valie
is aspects -- and often the most important aspects -- that are
uniquely Tolkien.

>> I don't agree. Mandos really acts like the Death we all know and
>> love.

Not at all.

> Which "Death" are you talking about?

I can't think of any god of the dead that matches beyond that very
basic role as the 'collecter of the dead'.

> He doesn't act like Hades/Pluto either,

I agree -- he is not at all like Hades / Pluto.

> and at the moment I cannot think of any Norse Death-God.

Well, we might get something out of Odin. Odin received half of the
warriors who died on the field of battle (the other half went to
Freya), and they were gathered in the hall he had set up for that
purpose, Valhalla.

But apart from that very superficial similarity, Mandos has little in
common with Odin.

I can't recall if the Greek and Roman pantheons has a judge -- or
'doomspeaker', but in the Norse mythology, that role is given to
Forseti, the son of Baldr, who is so wise that all who comes to him
for a judgement will reach a settlement. I can't recall any god from
a real mythology who combines these two aspects.

>> Ulmo acts like Poseidon in addition to living in the sea.
>
> Same here: Could you please give a concrete example where Ulmo and
> Poseidon act similarly? For example, "Ulmo loves both Elves and
> Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the
> wrath of the Valar". That's a very important personality aspect of
> Ulmo.

And there's the business about connection between the Music and the
sea, which is uniquely Tolkien. This is of course tied to Ulmo's role
as one who brings dreams to the Eruhíni stranded in Middle-earth.

The Norse mythology has several sea-gods, and Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen
seems to have received qualities that may stem from these. So we have
Ran, the wife of Ægir, who captures sailers in her net and drags them
under. Her spouse, Ægir, is the personification of the Sea (and a
giant to boot), whose power can be both for good and for evil, but
seeing him at sea bodes evil. Finally there is Njordr who is the god
of sailing and fishing and of the fertile coastlands. He represents
mostly the fertility and the bounty of the sea.

>> For Varda the most notable aspect of her personality is
>> "queenly",
>
> Well, that doesn't go much beyond "role"

And I strongly disagree with that assessment of Varda.

Her most notable aspect is as the 'Starkindler', 'Elbereth' -- the
one who brings light and hope to Middle-earth. She it is who hallowed
the Silmarils, and who, in the dawn of time, filled Aulë's lamps with
light. In many ways Varda is more important to the Exiles than Manwë,
the elder king -- it is to Varda, as 'Elbereth', that they lift their
voices and upon her that they base their hopes.

> No one gave me the "authority". But if you really insist that you
> can somehow measure the "strength" of Gods, and that it makes
> sense to compare them in this respect, then I guess we can stop
> this discussion now.

Yes. I remember that we had a discussion at some point about the
sense in discussing the 'power' of the Valar -- or even the Maiar. As
I recall it, we did have some idea that it would probably be possible
to create some very rough categories, but even then the Valar would
be split only in two: Melkor and Manwë and then the rest. It is
usually pointless to discuss relative strength, because it is so very
dependent on what for -- Yavanna is certainly not the highest in
Valinórean stature, but none of the other, including Varda and Manwë,
could have created the Two Trees, nor got them to bear the last two
fruits.

<snip>

> So what results do you imagine, beyond "Tulkas had a beard, and
> Jupiter had a beard, so they must be similar?"

Thor also had a beard -- a red one, even

/And/ he was a great fighter (he was the strongest of the Æsir and
the most skilled in single combat).

> Well, if you pick and choose, you can find similarities
> everywhere. Give me two random groups of a dozen people each and I
> can point out aspects of their personalities that are similar.
> Does that mean that they "inspired" each other?

I don't think there can be any doubt that Tolkien was in some ways
inspired by the real ancient European pantheons: what he wanted to
create (at first, at least) was something that could have the same
'feeling' for England as the other mythologies had. We know
positively that he was inspired by the Finnish Kalevala mythology,
but I don't know enough about that to begin finding similarities, and
by the Norse mythology (e.g. the names of Gandalf and the Dwarves in
/The Hobbit/ -- and other things as well), and it is quite reasonable
to claim that he was inspired by Celtic mythology as well -- I
believe the idea of the wild hunt is very strong in Celtic mythology,
which may have given rise, in a moderated form, to aspects of the
character of Oromë (the Norse god Odin is actually also the leader of
the wild hunt in Norse mythology, but I won't insist on using that).
We also know that Tolkien knew the Greek and the Roman mythologies,
though I don't recall if there is any direct evidence of him
borrowing elements from those.

However, while it can be a fun exercise to chase down possible
sources of inspiration for a given aspect of Tolkien's characters
(not just the Valar) in the European mythologies and legends, this
exercise doesn't inform our reading of Tolkien's stories, because in
every single case he contributed important aspects that were uniquely
his own, and relying on such comparisons is, IMO, more likely to lead
us into false conclusions than it is to teach us anything new about
Tolkien's writing.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much
more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant
of ordinary things.
- Discworld scientists at work, /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

Troels Forchhammer <Troels.TakeThisOut@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> I don't think there can be any doubt that Tolkien was in some ways
> inspired by the real ancient European pantheons:

Yes, of course he was. And he even imitated the basic idea of those
pantheons, that every God has some specific "role", or "field",
which he/she is known for. But I think that's as far as we can take
it, I don't see him taking specific Gods and then modelling a specific
Vala on them.

> We know positively that he was inspired by the Finnish Kalevala
> mythology, but I don't know enough about that to begin finding
> similarities,

The Turin-story is copied quite blatantly

> and by the Norse mythology (e.g. the names of Gandalf and the
> Dwarves in /The Hobbit/ -- and other things as well), and it is
> quite reasonable to claim that he was inspired by Celtic mythology
> as well

Yes, but all this inspiration doesn't mean that he took an arbitrary
specific figure and created the equivalent in middle earth. We *can*
actually point out specific similarities, as with Turin/Kullervo,
the singing contest between Sauron and Felagund, the Rapunzel motif,
the Tarnhelm, and so on. So it's possible, but one has to be
*specific*, and actually look at whether things match or don't. Not
any chance similarity means that there is actually a match. And I
don't see any such match between the Valar and Roman/Greek/Norse Gods.

> -- I believe the idea of the wild hunt is very strong in Celtic
> mythology, which may have given rise,

It's actually also prominent in a lot of local German folk-tales.
So I'm not sure about the Celtic origin.

- Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

In message
<news:20080606195738.2FFD.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Troels.DeleteThis@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>>

<snip>

> I don't see him taking specific Gods and then modelling a
> specific Vala on them.

I quite agree. That's what I meant by saying that the Valar (and many
other characters besides) inherit elements from many mythological and
legendary characters and not just from one. His characters are a mix
of element, some traceable to a specific source, some more generic
(such as a 'god of the dead'), some untraceable and many unique to
Tolkien. All of his characters contain elements from several sources,
and as whole characters they are all unique to Tolkien (with the
possible exception of Eru, though even with Eru, Tolkien dared add
elements which were his own).

>> We know positively that he was inspired by the Finnish Kalevala
>> mythology, but I don't know enough about that to begin finding
>> similarities,
>
> The Turin-story is copied quite blatantly

Yes, of course I was focusing on gods and Valar when I was
writing that, so I didn't think of Túrin.

From the outset of the story, Túrin was probably more directly based
on an ancient source than any other character in Tolkien's writings
(except Eru), but even with Túrin the direct derivation was moderated
over time and elements from other sources than the Kalevala was added
to the Túrin soup, so that in the end (for instance as the story is
in CoH) the copying is far less blatant than it was in BoLT. The
story of Kullervo is mixed with other elements -- some from the
Vølsunga saga and other from other sources (is there, for instance, a
shadow of Beorthnoth in Túrin's insistence on the bridge over the
Narog and meeting the enemy in the open?).

> We *can* actually point out specific similarities, as with
> Turin/Kullervo, the singing contest between Sauron and Felagund,
> the Rapunzel motif, the Tarnhelm, and so on.

Yes, precisely! The correspondance is at the level of single
elements, never at the level of a complete character or anything
close. I can't recall any instance (with Eru as the usual possible
exception) where I would say that one of Tolkien's characters is
predominantly derived from one specific source and then mixed with a
few minor elements from elsewhere.

> So it's possible, but one has to be *specific*, and actually look
> at whether things match or don't.

Indeed.

> Not any chance similarity means that there is actually a match.

Indeed not.

And even when there is a match for a specific element (such as Oromë
borrowing from the Germannic / Celtic idea of the wild hunt), one
needs to be careful with that fact. Such a match doesn't tell us
anything about Oromë; it doesn't inform our reading in any way. All
it can tell us is something about Tolkien's writing habits and
possibly something about his tastes in myth and legends.

> And I don't see any such match between the Valar and Roman/Greek/
> Norse Gods.

Well, if we get down to the level of the very specific I do think we
can probably find a few matches, but these are not strong enough to
justify the kind of one-to-one matching suggested by the OP. We can
say that e.g. Manwë inherits elements from Odin, but he also inherits
elements from other gods (Odin was never a god of air and winds), but
his most important qualities aren't inherited, but comes directly
from Tolkien (this is e.g. his understanding of Eru's will and his
ability to communicate directly with Eru -- Manwë is the Elder King
and the Lord of the West, but only because he is Eru's representative
and vicegerent -- aspects which aren't found in any other mythology
that I know of). And at the same time there are other characters who
have inherited other characteristics from Odin, so the inheritance is
never a simplistic one-to-one, but rather a complex mesh of many-to-
many relations.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Smile
a while
ere day
is done
and all
your gall
will soon
be gone.
- Piet Hein, /Advice at Nightfall/
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

Fri, 6 Jun 2008 17:38:36 +0200 from Dirk Thierbach
<dthierbach RemoveThis @usenet.arcornews.de>:
> Which "Death" are you talking about? The one from Pratchett? It's been
> some time since I read Pratchett, but Mandos doesn't talk in capital
> letters, doesn't show up personally to "collect" people, and isn't,
> hm, cynical either. He doesn't act like Hades/Pluto either, and at the
> moment I cannot think of any Norse Death-God.

And an important part of Mandos' remit is what we might call prophecy
and judgment -- "he is the doomsman of the Valar". That doesn't go
along with the good of death or the underworld in any of the
mythologies I know, though I know only a few.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:40:22 +0200 from Troels Forchhammer
<Troels RemoveThis @ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> We can
> say that e.g. Manwë inherits elements from Odin, but he also inherits
> elements from other gods (Odin was never a god of air and winds),

Wasn't Odin the bringer of storms? Or am I thinking of something
else?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

In message <news:MPG.22b426db943c13b398b687@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
>

<snip>

> Wasn't Odin the bringer of storms? Or am I thinking of something
> else?

I don't remember Odin as a storm god -- my impression is rather that
this was Thor's job (Thor, IIRC, is, in etymological terms, the same as
Zeus). On the other hand, I am no expert on Norse mythology, and there
are many traditions that I know nothing about. I wouldn't be terribly
surprised if Odin was also a stormbringer -- possibly a specific storm
god, like the chaotic storm (which could be associated with the wild
hunt), or as a god of the battle-field weather.

The Wikipedia article on Odin goes some way towards presenting the the
confusion of sources -- though of course that is a better situation
than no sources at all

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

The major problem [encountered in time travel] is quite
simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this
matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's
Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.
- Douglas Adams, /The Restaurant at the End of the Universe/
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar 

On Jun 6, 2:50 pm, Troels Forchhammer <Tro....RemoveThis@ThisIsFake.invalid>
wrote:
> In message <news:20080606153836.2220.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
> Dirk Thierbach <dthierb....RemoveThis@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
> > Sid Eles <pavlovevide....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Comparisons should include all available information.
>
> > And if you insist on comparing all aspects, they may very well end
> > up with the conclusion that there's no match.
>
> Another conclusion which would be just as wrong as the conclusion
> that there is a match (even a 'best match')
>
> Each of the Valar obviously derive some aspects from other
> mytologies, but none of them have inherited from just one other god
> and none of them have inherited everything: in every Vala and Valie
> is aspects -- and often the most important aspects -- that are
> uniquely Tolkien.
>
> >> I don't agree. Mandos really acts like the Death we all know and
> >> love.
>
> Not at all.

I think Mandos matches the Roman conception of Death pretty well, or
probably more accurately the medieval take on the Roman god. The
medieval Death inspired Ingmar Bergman's Death in the Seventh Seal,
which in turn shaped popular notion of Death personified, aka the Grim
Reaper. I think it's quite possible JRRT drew upon some of the same
material when conceiving Mandos. In fairness, a lot of aspects of
Death's behavior are almost obvious. What, do you expect the reaper
of souls to act like a hippie?

Anyways, here are important ways Mandos is like Death.

- Death is an aloof, mysterious character.

- Death is pitiless (which is almost true of Mandos).

- Death sees everything, future and past, yet knows nothing (Mandos
does know all, but never speaks of the future unless Manwe tells him
to, which probably happens about as often as he's moved to pity. The
idea behind Death knowing nothing is that with knowledge one can
change the future, but Death can't change the future, so he must be
without knowledge. Mandos can't change the future since he almost
never speaks of it, so there is similarity.)

- Death's dark robes might be comparable, if you believe that is was
Mandos himself who uttered the Prophesy of Mandos. The utterer was
described as a "dark figure".

Unlike Mandos, however:

- The Roman Death was often conflated, for fairly obvious reasons,
with Time. Which is why he is often depicted carrying around an
hourglass.

- Since Time was associated with harvest, and because harvest is the
death of the plant, and because of a play on the Greek words
"cronos" (time) and "Chronos" (the Greek analogue of Saturn, the god
of agriculture), Death is also associated with the harvest. Which is
why he's often depicted carrying around a scythe.

- Some depictions of Death show him as a skeleton.

- Death is merely an executor, not a judge; but then Mandos never
struck me as much of a judge so much as a clerk.


> > Which "Death" are you talking about?
>
> I can't think of any god of the dead that matches beyond that very
> basic role as the 'collecter of the dead'.
>
> > He doesn't act like Hades/Pluto either,
>
> I agree -- he is not at all like Hades / Pluto.

Hades and Pluto aren't personifications of Death. I'm not sure they
were even gods of death. Did ancient Greeks make a sacrifice to Hades
in funerals?

The Greek god Thanatos was depicted nothing like the Grim Reaper; he
was more of benevolent being that comforted the dead on their way to
the underworld. (Charon, who he transferred the souls to, is more
comparable, at least in the pitiless aspect.)

The Roman god Mors I covered above.


> > and at the moment I cannot think of any Norse Death-God.
>
> Well, we might get something out of Odin. Odin received half of the
> warriors who died on the field of battle (the other half went to
> Freya), and they were gathered in the hall he had set up for that
> purpose, Valhalla.
>
> But apart from that very superficial similarity, Mandos has little in
> common with Odin.

Which is probably even more superficial than Hades or Pluto, yes.


> I can't recall if the Greek and Roman pantheons has a judge -- or
> 'doomspeaker', but in the Norse mythology, that role is given to
> Forseti, the son of Baldr, who is so wise that all who comes to him
> for a judgement will reach a settlement. I can't recall any god from
> a real mythology who combines these two aspects.
>
> >> Ulmo acts like Poseidon in addition to living in the sea.
>
> > Same here: Could you please give a concrete example where Ulmo and
> > Poseidon act similarly? For example, "Ulmo loves both Elves and
> > Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the
> > wrath of the Valar". That's a very important personality aspect of
> > Ulmo.
>
> And there's the business about connection between the Music and the
> sea, which is uniquely Tolkien. This is of course tied to Ulmo's role
> as one who brings dreams to the Eruhíni stranded in Middle-earth.
>
> The Norse mythology has several sea-gods, and Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen
> seems to have received qualities that may stem from these. So we have
> Ran, the wife of Ægir, who captures sailers in her net and drags them
> under. Her spouse, Ægir, is the personification of the Sea (and a
> giant to boot), whose power can be both for good and for evil, but
> seeing him at sea bodes evil. Finally there is Njordr who is the god
> of sailing and fishing and of the fertile coastlands. He represents
> mostly the fertility and the bounty of the sea.

All very interesting.


> >> For Varda the most notable aspect of her personality is
> >> "queenly",
>
> > Well, that doesn't go much beyond "role"
>
> And I strongly disagree with that assessment of Varda.
>
> Her most notable aspect is as the 'Starkindler', 'Elbereth' -- the
> one who brings light and hope to Middle-earth. She it is who hallowed
> the Silmarils, and who, in the dawn of time, filled Aulë's lamps with
> light. In many ways Varda is more important to the Exiles than Manwë,
> the elder king -- it is to Varda, as 'Elbereth', that they lift their
> voices and upon her that they base their hopes.

I can see it. Queenly covers benevolence somewhat, I would say, but
that aspect of queenliness doesn't necessarily apply to Frigg.


> Yes. I remember that we had a discussion at some point about the
> sense in discussing the 'power' of the Valar -- or even the Maiar. As
> I recall it, we did have some idea that it would probably be possible
> to create some very rough categories, but even then the Valar would
> be split only in two: Melkor and Manwë and then the rest.

Doesn't the Valaquenta list nine of the fourteen as more powerful than
the others? (IIRC, Manwe, Varda, Mandos, Lorien, Orome, Ulmo, Aule,
Yavanna, Nienna.)


> It is
> usually pointless to discuss relative strength, because it is so very
> dependent on what for -- Yavanna is certainly not the highest in
> Valinórean stature, but none of the other, including Varda and Manwë,
> could have created the Two Trees, nor got them to bear the last two
> fruits.

True, but it could be said of the pantheons as well.

(I'd actually have Yavanna at #3 in my Vala Power Rankings, behind
Manwe and Mandos, and ahead of Varda. I'm not counting Melkor.)


> > So what results do you imagine, beyond "Tulkas had a beard, and
> > Jupiter had a beard, so they must be similar?"
>
> Thor also had a beard -- a red one, even
>
> /And/ he was a great fighter (he was the strongest of the Æsir and
> the most skilled in single combat).
>
> > Well, if you pick and choose, you can find similarities
> > everywhere. Give me two random groups of a dozen people each and I
> > can point out aspects of their personalities that are similar.
> > Does that mean that they "inspired" each other?
>
> I don't think there can be any doubt that Tolkien was in some ways
> inspired by the real ancient European pantheons: what he wanted to
> create (at first, at least) was something that could have the same
> 'feeling' for England as the other mythologies had. We know
> positively that he was inspired by the Finnish Kalevala mythology,
> but I don't know enough about that to begin finding similarities, and
> by the Norse mythology (e.g. the names of Gandalf and the Dwarves in
> /The Hobbit/ -- and other things as well), and it is quite reasonable
> to claim that he was inspired by Celtic mythology as well -- I
> believe the idea of the wild hunt is very strong in Celtic mythology,
> which may have given rise, in a moderated form, to aspects of the
> character of Oromë (the Norse god Odin is actually also the leader of
> the wild hunt in Norse mythology, but I won't insist on using that).
> We also know that Tolkien knew the Greek and the Roman mythologies,
> though I don't recall if there is any direct evidence of him
> borrowing elements from those.
>
> However, while it can be a fun exercise to chase down possible
> sources of inspiration for a given aspect of Tolkien's characters
> (not just the Valar) in the European mythologies and legends, this
> exercise doesn't inform our reading of Tolkien's stories, because in
> every single case he contributed important aspects that were uniquely
> his own, and relying on such comparisons is, IMO, more likely to lead
> us into false conclusions than it is to teach us anything new about
> Tolkien's writing.

Fairly spoken.
 >> Stay informed about: Which gods inspired the Valar