Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose?

> I think Manticore could lose a war... but not against Haven. Against
> the Solarians. Then there could be several exciting books tracing the
> exiting and difficult adventures of Honor Harrington as she starts
> over again and reverses that great a defeat!

actually, I don't think I could take Manticore seriously if they lost
to the Solarians. They've been pretty much established by David Weber
as having the worst ships in the universe at this point. Personally,
I also think the Havenites have a right for payback.


 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Feb 7, 5:11 pm, Willowhugger <charlie_the_cat_po....RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> They've been pretty much established by David Weber
> as having the worst ships in the universe at this point. Personally,
> I also think the Havenites have a right for payback.

What I hope for the Havenites is peace and understanding with
Manticore, because that is achievable now, if not for the meddling of
the evil genetic slavers.

But the Solarians have technology that is far advanced of that of the
Manticorans, and they have much greater resources. So they should be
able to defeat Manticore and Haven united against them as a common
enemy. At least, that's how I understood the books. (But while they
may have the best ships... they are likely to have the worst *crews*
in the universe.)

John Savard
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

> But the Solarians have technology that is far advanced of that of the
> Manticorans, and they have much greater resources. So they should be
> able to defeat Manticore and Haven united against them as a common
> enemy. At least, that's how I understood the books. (But while they
> may have the best ships... they are likely to have the worst *crews*
> in the universe.)

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/

If this is legitimate, David said this.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_divisions_in_the_sln.htm
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

"Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:04bc1d45-7b7e-480a-b9b4-fd7e034a362c@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the last
> book, I'm almost interested in seeing Manticore lose to the Republic
> of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous invincible, though the
> last book did a nice job of eliminating their aura.
>
> (right until Haven got utterly clobbered).

It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one every
now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.

Mind you, I've loved the Harrington series, but the routine of Manticore
whomping Haven every major engagement has gotten to the point of being like
reading the end of the story first. You KNOW Manticore is going to win...
again.... and again .... and again....

I'd like just once to read a long Harrington novel where Haven, perhaps via
Shannon Foraker's abilities, whaps Manticore upside the head with a potent
weapon system or even Manticore screws up by the nuimbers early in the
book, and the book ends with Manticore on the ropes with Haven badly
battered as well but in a position to maybe finish Manticore off as a
galactic power.

Something besides Haven getting it's lumps like it's an elementary school
wrestler taking on the last five Olympic champion wrestlers all at once,
five on one. Something more than Haven as an impotent opponet just there to
get mauled... again... and again... and again...

Manticore's rump in a sling for one book might actually have me looking
forward to the following book of the series. At this point I'm no longer
caring whether the next book comes out soon, or in a few years. It's just
another Manticore stomps Haven story. Perhaps new characters, different
scenes, or a new twist tossed in, but still just a Manticore stomps Haven
story.

A change of routine in the story would be nice.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:04bc1d45-7b7e-480a-b9b4-fd7e034a362c@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the last
>> book, I'm almost interested in seeing Manticore lose to the Republic
>> of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous invincible, though the
>> last book did a nice job of eliminating their aura.
>>
>> (right until Haven got utterly clobbered).
>
>It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one every
>now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
>doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>

Umm... in reading the books, Haven regularly has ripped Manticore a
new one. Let's see: The complete destruction of Basilisk's
infrastructure, wiping out Grendelsbane, etc. It's not even "pulling
a superweapon out of nowhere" that enables them to always win.
Remember, in the last book, the weapon was a "logical development of
existing technologies" . Only a small number of ships had the new
weapons - all of them assigned to Harrington. The reason she was able
to have the success she did at the end was that two other Manticoran
Fleets had been destroyed thinning down the Havenite force, and
tripping the rather nice trap that Tourville had crafted.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Quadibloc
<jsavard RemoveThis @ecn.ab.ca> wrote on Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:50:02 -0800 (PST) in
alt.books.david-weber :
>On Feb 7, 5:11 pm, Willowhugger <charlie_the_cat_po... RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>> They've been pretty much established by David Weber
>> as having the worst ships in the universe at this point. Personally,
>> I also think the Havenites have a right for payback.
>
>What I hope for the Havenites is peace and understanding with
>Manticore, because that is achievable now, if not for the meddling of
>the evil genetic slavers.
>
>But the Solarians have technology that is far advanced of that of the
>Manticorans, and they have much greater resources. So they should be
>able to defeat Manticore and Haven united against them as a common
>enemy. At least, that's how I understood the books. (But while they
>may have the best ships... they are likely to have the worst *crews*
>in the universe.)

The opening stages of any war will demonstrate in a very Darwinian
fashioned, what works, and what doesn't. Those who survive that
opening campaign will, of necessity, be more competent than those who
didn't. (Unfortunately, alot of competents will not survive, due to
their being commanded by the incompetent, or merely unlucky.)

We've been over this before. Basically, the SLN Fleet does not
have cutting edge technology, but "quantity has it's own quality". OFS
has better ships, but they are out at the pointy edge. Yes, the
Manties (and the Havenites) would go through a standard Solarian Fleet
like a hot knife through butter. But the SLN has a lot of butter. And
more "cows", to provide more, and improved 'butter.)
Pound for pound (or mega-ton per mega-ton) I'll back the Manties v
the Sollies any day. OTOH, there are some Mantie commanders who
couldn't lead sailors into a bar, so ....

A general Manti-Sollie war would probably also provide the excuse
for various factions in the SL to "provide strong leadership in this
time of trial", and some fragmenting of the league as "those people"
(not Us) try to carve out their own little empire. [Review the
Solarian detachment at Erewhon in "Crown of Slaves"]


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:50:02 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard DeleteThis @ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Feb 7, 5:11 pm, Willowhugger <charlie_the_cat_po... DeleteThis @yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>> They've been pretty much established by David Weber
>> as having the worst ships in the universe at this point. Personally,
>> I also think the Havenites have a right for payback.
>
>What I hope for the Havenites is peace and understanding with
>Manticore, because that is achievable now, if not for the meddling of
>the evil genetic slavers.
>
>But the Solarians have technology that is far advanced of that of the
>Manticorans, and they have much greater resources. So they should be
>able to defeat Manticore and Haven united against them as a common
>enemy. At least, that's how I understood the books. (But while they
>may have the best ships... they are likely to have the worst *crews*
>in the universe.)

No. The Sollies have numbers and good EW suites but that's
meaningless against MDM's, let alone Apollo.

We saw what happened with Manticore tech vs Sollie tech--the only
reason the Sollies got hits was they snuck in and didn't give
Manticore the full range of it's missiles.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

"Doug Jones" <emailunknown DeleteThis @noplace.org> wrote in message
news:6qnnq39kh4rlv89alms87f9i7f0kfkcr5t@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one
>>every
>>now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
>>doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>>
>
> Umm... in reading the books, Haven regularly has ripped Manticore a
> new one. Let's see: The complete destruction of Basilisk's
> infrastructure,

And White Haven brought in the fleet from Trevor's Star with the pod ships
(super weapon) and slaughtered the Havenites,

>wiping out Grendelsbane, etc

This the one where the brainless clown Harrington knew and despised from her
snotty cruise took his task force on the suicide run? That wasn't a major
battle.

It's not even "pulling
> a superweapon out of nowhere" that enables them to always win.
> Remember, in the last book, the weapon was a "logical development of
> existing technologies" . Only a small number of ships had the new
> weapons - all of them assigned to Harrington. The reason she was able
> to have the success she did at the end was that two other Manticoran
> Fleets had been destroyed thinning down the Havenite force, and
> tripping the rather nice trap that Tourville had crafted.
>

And her weapon was so overwhelming that it made the Havenites situatiion
hopeless in that attack on Manticore system, in spite of the massive swarms
of superdreadnaughts and all that they had before she fired. Haven was
kicking butt and would have done serious damage to Manticore, then the
superweapon turns up. Haven is suddenly in a situation of effective
helplessness. They had several hundred superdreadnaughts against her small
number of superweapon equipped ships and were like a mob with plastic
baseball bats fighting a dozen M-1 tanks. Haven had to surrender or be
wiped out. <Yawn> Same routine.

If the superweapon hadn't been there and Haven had been able to tear up the
Manticore infrastructure before backing off, by choice, or by being driven
off, I would have liked the last book a lot more. I found the books ending a
real letdown. The book built up to the Manticore/Haven slugfest, then
suddenly found Manticore holding asuperweapon to Haven's adams apple.
Surrender or be wiped out. Once again, Haven is whomped by a superweapon.
Deja vu.... we've been here before.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

In article <foj8mq01oc0 RemoveThis @enews2.newsguy.com>,
"Baydlor" <baydlor RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Doug Jones" <emailunknown RemoveThis @noplace.org> wrote in message
> news:6qnnq39kh4rlv89alms87f9i7f0kfkcr5t@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one
> >>every
> >>now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
> >>doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
> >>
> >
> > Umm... in reading the books, Haven regularly has ripped Manticore a
> > new one. Let's see: The complete destruction of Basilisk's
> > infrastructure,
>
> And White Haven brought in the fleet from Trevor's Star with the pod ships
> (super weapon) and slaughtered the Havenites,
>

That was only a detachment that was wiped out, the main fleet got
away clean after destroying the Basilisk's infrastructure.

> >wiping out Grendelsbane, etc
>
> This the one where the brainless clown Harrington knew and despised from her
> snotty cruise took his task force on the suicide run? That wasn't a major
> battle.
>

You are thinking of the 2nd battle of Seaford 9 in _Echoes of
Honor_; Grendelsbane was wiped out in _War of Honor_.

--
Robert Woodward <robertaw RemoveThis @drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:04bc1d45-7b7e-480a-b9b4-fd7e034a362c@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the last
>> book, I'm almost interested in seeing Manticore lose to the Republic
>> of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous invincible, though the
>> last book did a nice job of eliminating their aura.
>>
>> (right until Haven got utterly clobbered).
>
>It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one every
>now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
>doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>
>Mind you, I've loved the Harrington series, but the routine of Manticore
>whomping Haven every major engagement has gotten to the point of being like
>reading the end of the story first. You KNOW Manticore is going to win...
>again.... and again .... and again....
>
>I'd like just once to read a long Harrington novel where Haven, perhaps via
>Shannon Foraker's abilities, whaps Manticore upside the head with a potent
>weapon system or even Manticore screws up by the nuimbers early in the
>book, and the book ends with Manticore on the ropes with Haven badly
>battered as well but in a position to maybe finish Manticore off as a
>galactic power.
>
>Something besides Haven getting it's lumps like it's an elementary school
>wrestler taking on the last five Olympic champion wrestlers all at once,
>five on one. Something more than Haven as an impotent opponet just there to
>get mauled... again... and again... and again...
>
>Manticore's rump in a sling for one book might actually have me looking
>forward to the following book of the series. At this point I'm no longer
>caring whether the next book comes out soon, or in a few years. It's just
>another Manticore stomps Haven story. Perhaps new characters, different
>scenes, or a new twist tossed in, but still just a Manticore stomps Haven
>story.
>
>A change of routine in the story would be nice.
>

i seem to remember haven getting in some good shots even later in the
series. they just came within an ace of taking manticore right out
and while they lost that one they have still inflicted a near mortal
wound on the RMN. haven can replace the ships lost faster and easier
than manticore can as well as buying them time to come up with
counters to the manties latest wonder weapon.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

"Brian McDonald" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:0f2qq394kr22nh6ps643ashr7pref1iq4a@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:04bc1d45-7b7e-480a-b9b4-fd7e034a362c@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>>I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the last
>>> book, I'm almost interested in seeing Manticore lose to the Republic
>>> of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous invincible, though the
>>> last book did a nice job of eliminating their aura.
>>>
>>> (right until Haven got utterly clobbered).
>>
>>It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one
>>every
>>now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
>>doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>>
>>Mind you, I've loved the Harrington series, but the routine of Manticore
>>whomping Haven every major engagement has gotten to the point of being
>>like
>>reading the end of the story first. You KNOW Manticore is going to win...
>>again.... and again .... and again....
>>
>>I'd like just once to read a long Harrington novel where Haven, perhaps
>>via
>>Shannon Foraker's abilities, whaps Manticore upside the head with a potent
>>weapon system or even Manticore screws up by the nuimbers early in the
>>book, and the book ends with Manticore on the ropes with Haven badly
>>battered as well but in a position to maybe finish Manticore off as a
>>galactic power.
>>
>>Something besides Haven getting it's lumps like it's an elementary school
>>wrestler taking on the last five Olympic champion wrestlers all at once,
>>five on one. Something more than Haven as an impotent opponet just there
>>to
>>get mauled... again... and again... and again...
>>
>>Manticore's rump in a sling for one book might actually have me looking
>>forward to the following book of the series. At this point I'm no longer
>>caring whether the next book comes out soon, or in a few years. It's just
>>another Manticore stomps Haven story. Perhaps new characters, different
>>scenes, or a new twist tossed in, but still just a Manticore stomps Haven
>>story.
>>
>>A change of routine in the story would be nice.
>>
>
> i seem to remember haven getting in some good shots even later in the
> series. they just came within an ace of taking manticore right out
> and while they lost that one they have still inflicted a near mortal
> wound on the RMN. haven can replace the ships lost faster and easier
> than manticore can as well as buying them time to come up with
> counters to the manties latest wonder weapon.

But if the pattern holds, there will be another superweapon to slaughter
Haven when they return for the next round, provided of course, Harrington
just doesn't duck through the wormhole to Trevor's Star and go on to Haven's
capital and use that lastest superweapon on the fleet there, and then lock
Pritchart & Theisman in her ship's brig. All before breakfast on the morning
she arrives there.

Manticore lost a lot of ships in the battle at Manticore but they were
'obsolete non superweapon pod ships'. Which are apparently about as helpless
vs the new superweapon ships as the pre-pod ships were when the pod ships
came along. Manticore can probably build a lot of their newly armed ships
before Haven can develop a matching or counter-weapon. Only David Weber
knows for sure.

Maybe he will have Harrington's fleet fly into Haven and walk into some
surprise from Bolthole and she'll wind up returning to Manticore in a ship
resembling well chewed swiss cheese that Theisman and Foraker 'let' escape.
Manticore's powerful main battle force is overwhelmed and destroyed in the
battle instead of Haven's. <g>
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Robert A.
Woodward" <robertaw.RemoveThis@drizzle.com> wrote on Fri, 08 Feb 2008 22:10:13
-0800 in alt.books.david-weber :
>In article <foj8mq01oc0.RemoveThis@enews2.newsguy.com>,
> "Baydlor" <baydlor.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Doug Jones" <emailunknown.RemoveThis@noplace.org> wrote in message
>> news:6qnnq39kh4rlv89alms87f9i7f0kfkcr5t@4ax.com...
>> > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one
>> >>every
>> >>now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
>> >>doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Umm... in reading the books, Haven regularly has ripped Manticore a
>> > new one. Let's see: The complete destruction of Basilisk's
>> > infrastructure,
>>
>> And White Haven brought in the fleet from Trevor's Star with the pod ships
>> (super weapon) and slaughtered the Havenites,
>>
>
>That was only a detachment that was wiped out, the main fleet got
>away clean after destroying the Basilisk's infrastructure.

And that was the target. Ships can be replaced. But if first you
have to replace the shipping yards, it takes longer. It takes even
longer if you have to replace the construction facilities to make the
parts to build a shipping yard. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Haven and Manticore both know that "currently" the Havenites have
an edge due to numbers, but once Manticore ramps up production, their
quality will cause problems. So the raids against Manticore
construction and repair yards are as much to buy Haven more time, as
they are to cause damage.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 22:31:28 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor.RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>And her weapon was so overwhelming that it made the Havenites situatiion
>hopeless in that attack on Manticore system, in spite of the massive swarms
>of superdreadnaughts and all that they had before she fired. Haven was
>kicking butt and would have done serious damage to Manticore, then the
>superweapon turns up. Haven is suddenly in a situation of effective
>helplessness. They had several hundred superdreadnaughts against her small
>number of superweapon equipped ships and were like a mob with plastic
>baseball bats fighting a dozen M-1 tanks. Haven had to surrender or be
>wiped out. <Yawn> Same routine.

Except that was actually a big bluff. Harrington could not
effectively engage. The Apollo missiles would have worked over that
range but only as ordinary missiles, not as superweapons. Had Haven
not surrendered at that point they could still have carried out their
mission effectively.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose?