Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose?

"Doug Jones" <norbrookc RemoveThis @spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:5gue04pv63pp0g4tg65an1u4448jr02kct@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:42:00 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
> <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>Doug Jones wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:48:23 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>> <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doug Jones wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:03:55 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>>> <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Doug Jones wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:04bc1d45-7b7e-480a-b9b4-fd7e034a362c@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>> I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the
>>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>>> book, I'm almost interested in seeing Manticore lose to the
>>>>>>>>> Republic
>>>>>>>>> of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous invincible, though
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> last book did a nice job of eliminating their aura.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (right until Haven got utterly clobbered).
>>>>>>>> It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new
>>>>>>>> one every
>>>>>>>> now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the
>>>>>>>> sun
>>>>>>>> doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Umm... in reading the books, Haven regularly has ripped Manticore a
>>>>>>> new one. Let's see: The complete destruction of Basilisk's
>>>>>>> infrastructure, wiping out Grendelsbane, etc. It's not even
>>>>>>> "pulling
>>>>>>> a superweapon out of nowhere" that enables them to always win.
>>>>>>> Remember, in the last book, the weapon was a "logical development of
>>>>>>> existing technologies" . Only a small number of ships had the new
>>>>>>> weapons - all of them assigned to Harrington. The reason she was
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to have the success she did at the end was that two other Manticoran
>>>>>>> Fleets had been destroyed thinning down the Havenite force, and
>>>>>>> tripping the rather nice trap that Tourville had crafted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> And she lied convincingly. The fleet that gave up could have just
>>>>>> left.
>>>>> You need to vonsider Tourville's position. He is within the hyper
>>>>> limit with a badly damaged fleet, what's left of Second Fleet still in
>>>>> firing range, he's just seen one of his fleets wiped out virtually
>>>>> instantaneously, and another set of missles fired from an impossibly
>>>>> long range just waltzed through his formation's defenses. In order to
>>>>> "just leave," he's got to disengage from one battle,and limp his
>>>>> ships out to the hyper limit, all the while possibly taking
>>>>> devastating fire from a fleet he can't even reach. I don't think she
>>>>> had to lie convincingly - the situation was pretty much hopeless for
>>>>> him.
>>>> The force he he had fought was spent. It could not follow him and would
>>>> have died if it tried. He was out of effective range of any force that
>>>> could stop him from leaving because it had to more less shoot blind.
>>>> That means she bluffed him to the point he didn't even purge his
>>>> systems
>>>> and all FTL capable ships could have left or at least that is how I
>>>> took a post by DW.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It may have been spent, but it was still able to fire at him. They
>>> were already prepared for that option. In order to disengage, he has
>>> to destroy them first, or lose more of his forces as they try to move
>>> away. Then he has to limp out to the hyper limit. In the meantime,
>>> 8'th Fleet is out near the limit, and and can hyper out to cut him
>>> off, a tactic that she's already used, and which was the whole trigger
>>> for Beatrice. In addition, he also knew that the light elements of
>>> her fleet (and Second's) came through the wormhole, but were not there
>>> with her or Second Fleet. So he now has to wonder where they are, and
>>> if he's trying to retreat, if they could be lying in wait for him.
>>>
>>I'm sorry. According to my memory the force he was engaged with had been
>>so savagely handled it no longer constituted an effective fighting
>>force at least when compared to what he had. None were intact and most
>>had been badly trashed or were dead. It was still there and doing what
>>it could but that doesn't mean it amounted to much.
>>
>
> While seriously damaged, they were still rolling missles at him.
> "Effective" is not the question here, it's the amount of damage they
> can still do his remaining force (which was also badly damaged), when
> there's another, intact fleet coming at him.
>
>>The hyper limit is a huge sphere. If he simply divided his ships up into
>>single ships and said run for it the odds are very bad that any
>>effective means could have been found to cut many of them off. Guessing
>> where the ships would hit the hyper limit if they changed course at
>>all would have been unlikely and these ships were going to jump as soon
>>as they reached the limit.
>>
>>Honor might have/would have gotten some of them but that is about it.
>>
>>Please recall that DW is already on record as saying you can't blockade
>>a solar system. What you are suggesting is that Honor can blockade a
>>solar system.
>>
> I'm not suggesting any such thing. Your point would be true *if* he
> was free to run in any direction, without opposition, in a normal
> single-star system. This is not the case here. He has a limited cone
> to escape to, since he can't run through 8'th Fleet or into an area
> where they can easily intercept. That limits his escape vector
> options right there. Add in that Manticore is a binary system, with a
> wormhole, and it limits his vector even more.
>
>>
>>
>>>> He didn't know this of course but she still had to be convincing and
>>>> firing that long shot that went through without hitting anything was a
>>>> smart part of the bluff.
>>>
>>> He does know what she can do. The question he had to judge was
>>> whether she could pull it off. Given her reputation, he judged that
>>> she did. She might have been bluffing, but is he going to risk what
>>> remains of his command on that?
>>
>>What I said: she bluffed him/lied convincingly.
>
> Not really, given the information he had. He has just seen her wipe
> out a sizable fleet virtually instantaneously, from beyond "normal"
> range. He's seen her send a single small salvo right into the heart
> of his formation from an even more "impossible" range, and his
> counter-measures were ineffective. At the same time, you seem to be
> ignoring that Kuzak did not bring her light elements (BC's, CA's, and
> DD's) to the battle. They came later, along with 8'th Fleet's,
> driving off D'Amato's force from the terminus. He has no idea of
> where they are *now*, but he does know they're out there, and that
> they're not with Honor's fleet. Because he's lost his "eyes", he no
> longer has any idea of what else, if anything, has come through the
> Junction.
>
> That's the situation he's facing. He's got a damaged fleet. He's
> taken heavy losses. Yes, he can still destroy what remains of Third
> Fleet, and make a run for it, but he's got a limited arc to run to the
> hyper limit. There's an intact fleet out near the hyper limit, able
> to jump out along his most likely vector, with the ability to
> accurately control missle fire from very long distances. He doesn't
> know where a sizable force of "lighter" ships, some or many of them
> pod types, are. They could be stationing themselves right now along
> his most likely escape route. They don't have to stop him, they just
> have to be able to delay him long enough for Honor's force to finish
> him off. His choices are to save his remaining people by
> surrendering, or take a chance that maybe, just maybe she's bluffing
> and he'll be able to run successfully. But, even if he does manage to
> get some of them out, he's still going to lose a lot of them for no
> purpose.
>
> Finally, no, I don't recall DWW's statements, since I've never seen
> them. You keep referencing them in your posts, but the problem is not
> whether or not he said something in the past - it's that what he
> actually put in the books is at variance from what you're saying. I'm
> arguing from what was actually in the book, not on author comments at
> some point before the book was written.

I agree completely.

The only meaningful official 'reality' of the Honorverse is what DW gives us
in the stories themselves. Any comments that he presents to anyone *outside*
of one of his novels is just authors thoughts and comptemplations for his
story universe. What David Weber gives us, IN the stories themselve,.IS the
reality of the Honorverse.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Dwight E.
Howell" <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote on Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:30:54
-0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>Not if those missiles depend on advanced control from the ship board
>crew and you don't know what to tell them in time for it to matter.
>
>The control system has a time lag! In other word FTL communication's
>is not instant.

Not "instant" but compared to radio, it's seems like it. Sort of
the difference between mailing a letter, sending a telegram, or using
Email. There is a time lag on email, but the amount is "trivial" at
the distances involved. (Up to and including the moon's orbit.)
I don't recall how far apart the Havenite fleet is from 8th Fleet,
but divide that by 60 to get the "effective" distance Theisman and co
are from the Manties. Not instantaneous, but significant.
Right now, Havenite communication is from New Years to Christmas
day, while Manticore is from Christmas day to New Years. It isn't
exactly symmetrical.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:01:22 GMT, Doug Jones
<norbrookc RemoveThis @spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote:

>You need to vonsider Tourville's position. He is within the hyper
>limit with a badly damaged fleet, what's left of Second Fleet still in
>firing range, he's just seen one of his fleets wiped out virtually
>instantaneously, and another set of missles fired from an impossibly
>long range just waltzed through his formation's defenses. In order to
>"just leave," he's got to disengage from one battle,and limp his
>ships out to the hyper limit, all the while possibly taking
>devastating fire from a fleet he can't even reach. I don't think she
>had to lie convincingly - the situation was pretty much hopeless for
>him.

He saw the missiles waltz through but what he didn't know was that was
all she could actually do, she couldn't command a sufficient number of
missiles at that range to serious harm. All he had to do is keep the
range open with her while disengaging.

If she stays outside to cut him off she leaves Manticore open, it's
orbital works are punched out. If she follows him in he simply keeps
going and there's no way she can catch him.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:13:44 -0700 (PDT), "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com"
<rlbell.nsuid DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>I suspect that the next Foraker coup will be to do in missile defence
>what she did with anti-LAC tactics-- figure out how to employ the
>'triple ripple' against clusters of Apollo missiles. That Apollo
>missiles cannot be too seperated is an achilles heel begging for an
>exploit.

Except it doesn't work. Apollo missiles only come in a cluster of 9.
They don't need to be put in huge formations to work.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:56:14 -0400, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net>
wrote:

>> What I said: she bluffed him/lied convincingly.
>
>It wasn't a bluff. She was in position to destroy Tourville's entire
>fleet, and she had the missiles to do it with. If Tourville had decided
>she was bluffing, and tried to run or fight, his remaining ships would
>have been obliterated.

DW has said it was a bluff. She didn't have the bandwidth to make the
missiles effective at that range.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

Don Sample wrote:
> In article <Z1ANj.24928$%15.5317@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
> "Dwight E. Howell" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> And your take was my take till I came across a post that made it clear
>> the tech for long range missile control has limits and Tourville was
>> beyond them.
>>
>> Up until then as for as I was concerned the war was over and Haven had
>> lost and dragging things out and even the entire last part of the book
>> was just puke. David had played the high tech card and this time it was
>> all over to the point I didn't even want to read another HH book.
>>
>> Scatter and head for the hyper limit should have gotten most of the
>> ships with intact drives out according to the revised data.
>>
>> So everybody agrees that Tourville did the right thing based on what he
>> knew or what I learned or you learned by reading the book.
>>
>> However based on the post I'm forced to conclude that she bluffed him.
>>
>> However a snerk isn't the same as putting in in a published book. Until
>> it shows up there DW should be considered free to change anything. After
>> it is published it is of course very hard to call those books back.
>>
>> I'm not even sure that the post doesn't reflect second thoughts.
>>
>>
>> I'm afraid I'm coming to regard any more HH books in much the same way
>> as I regard a visit by the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny. I will now
>> believe it when I see it. I will be happy to see it.
>
>
> I think you must have read something that Weber said about MDM missiles
> when they were first introduced. They did have problems with terminal
> guidance at extreme range, but that was the problem that Apollo was
> developed to solve. Honor demonstrated that she *did* have terminal
> guidance over her missiles, even when fired from 150,000,000 kilometres
> away.
>


You could be right but if you are I'm about ready to say that at least
for me DW did the right thing when he stopped the series. He was going
places I had no wish to follow.

Unfortunately I haven't found some one to take his place. I didn't like
Forlorn Hope by David Drake which was my last try. To much reminded me
of something else I'd already read but then I used to read it all. I
have a lot of boxes of books stashed none of which I've looked at in years.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

pyotr filipivich wrote:
> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Dwight E.
> Howell" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote on Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:25:02
> -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>> rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
>>> I suspect that the next Foraker coup will be to do in missile defence
>>> what she did with anti-LAC tactics-- figure out how to employ the
>>> 'triple ripple' against clusters of Apollo missiles. That Apollo
>>> missiles cannot be too seperated is an achilles heel begging for an
>>> exploit.
>> DW is obviously going to have to give them something while in a way
>> doing another teck jump for the SK.
>>
>> If I understood what he was saying he is going to allow the SK to very
>> slowly rebuild a fleet of heavies.
>>
>> The bad new is this would cripple the SK merchant marine which is a huge
>> chunk of the cask cow by pulling a huge number of bodies out of it.
>>
>> There isn't going to be enough light stuff to matter which to me in a
>> way is nuts.
>>
>> Of course I think it is very unlikely that the SK could just up and stop
>> doing anti pirate sweeps and get away with it which is exactly what
>> they have done. Various parties would fund third parties to raid
>> commerce like crazy if the majors didn't do it directly. This would
>> give the Frontier Fleet a great reason to protect League shipping and
>> well who knows where that would lead.
>
> The Royal Navy is going to adopt a lot of Grayson innovations:
> e.g. massive amounts of automation. The fleet which is in development
> will require much fewer bodies to man (along with the attendant
> problems of reduced manpower on board pose in some areas, eg damage
> control.)
>
>

Since I don't think such ships should even have more than a few people
on them if that I'd say about time.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

Doug Jones wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:42:00 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
> <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Doug Jones wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:48:23 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>> <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doug Jones wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:03:55 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>>> <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Doug Jones wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:46:12 -0500, "Baydlor" <baydlor.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:04bc1d45-7b7e-480a-b9b4-fd7e034a362c@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>> I know it's an idle fancy but after the Deus Ex Machina of the last
>>>>>>>>> book, I'm almost interested in seeing Manticore lose to the Republic
>>>>>>>>> of Haven. It'd be a nice break from previous invincible, though the
>>>>>>>>> last book did a nice job of eliminating their aura.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (right until Haven got utterly clobbered).
>>>>>>>> It would be a nice change of pace if Haven ripped Manticore a new one every
>>>>>>>> now and then. This 'manticore pulls a superweapon out of where the sun
>>>>>>>> doesn't shine' every major battle has gotten a bit tiresome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Umm... in reading the books, Haven regularly has ripped Manticore a
>>>>>>> new one. Let's see: The complete destruction of Basilisk's
>>>>>>> infrastructure, wiping out Grendelsbane, etc. It's not even "pulling
>>>>>>> a superweapon out of nowhere" that enables them to always win.
>>>>>>> Remember, in the last book, the weapon was a "logical development of
>>>>>>> existing technologies" . Only a small number of ships had the new
>>>>>>> weapons - all of them assigned to Harrington. The reason she was able
>>>>>>> to have the success she did at the end was that two other Manticoran
>>>>>>> Fleets had been destroyed thinning down the Havenite force, and
>>>>>>> tripping the rather nice trap that Tourville had crafted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> And she lied convincingly. The fleet that gave up could have just left.
>>>>> You need to vonsider Tourville's position. He is within the hyper
>>>>> limit with a badly damaged fleet, what's left of Second Fleet still in
>>>>> firing range, he's just seen one of his fleets wiped out virtually
>>>>> instantaneously, and another set of missles fired from an impossibly
>>>>> long range just waltzed through his formation's defenses. In order to
>>>>> "just leave," he's got to disengage from one battle,and limp his
>>>>> ships out to the hyper limit, all the while possibly taking
>>>>> devastating fire from a fleet he can't even reach. I don't think she
>>>>> had to lie convincingly - the situation was pretty much hopeless for
>>>>> him.
>>>> The force he he had fought was spent. It could not follow him and would
>>>> have died if it tried. He was out of effective range of any force that
>>>> could stop him from leaving because it had to more less shoot blind.
>>>> That means she bluffed him to the point he didn't even purge his systems
>>>> and all FTL capable ships could have left or at least that is how I
>>>> took a post by DW.
>>>>
>>> It may have been spent, but it was still able to fire at him. They
>>> were already prepared for that option. In order to disengage, he has
>>> to destroy them first, or lose more of his forces as they try to move
>>> away. Then he has to limp out to the hyper limit. In the meantime,
>>> 8'th Fleet is out near the limit, and and can hyper out to cut him
>>> off, a tactic that she's already used, and which was the whole trigger
>>> for Beatrice. In addition, he also knew that the light elements of
>>> her fleet (and Second's) came through the wormhole, but were not there
>>> with her or Second Fleet. So he now has to wonder where they are, and
>>> if he's trying to retreat, if they could be lying in wait for him.
>>>
>> I'm sorry. According to my memory the force he was engaged with had been
>> so savagely handled it no longer constituted an effective fighting
>> force at least when compared to what he had. None were intact and most
>> had been badly trashed or were dead. It was still there and doing what
>> it could but that doesn't mean it amounted to much.
>>
>
> While seriously damaged, they were still rolling missles at him.
> "Effective" is not the question here, it's the amount of damage they
> can still do his remaining force (which was also badly damaged), when
> there's another, intact fleet coming at him.

They were so effect that he stopped shooting at them. They really had
him worried to the point that he was more or less oblivious to their
existence.


>
>> The hyper limit is a huge sphere. If he simply divided his ships up into
>> single ships and said run for it the odds are very bad that any
>> effective means could have been found to cut many of them off. Guessing
>> where the ships would hit the hyper limit if they changed course at
>> all would have been unlikely and these ships were going to jump as soon
>> as they reached the limit.
>>
>> Honor might have/would have gotten some of them but that is about it.
>>
>> Please recall that DW is already on record as saying you can't blockade
>> a solar system. What you are suggesting is that Honor can blockade a
>> solar system.
>>
> I'm not suggesting any such thing. Your point would be true *if* he
> was free to run in any direction, without opposition, in a normal
> single-star system. This is not the case here. He has a limited cone
> to escape to, since he can't run through 8'th Fleet or into an area
> where they can easily intercept. That limits his escape vector
> options right there. Add in that Manticore is a binary system, with a
> wormhole, and it limits his vector even more.

The only ships in that system that can seriously hurt him are with
Honor. She has all the new toys.

While he doesn't know it she isn't in much of a position to do much
damage either.

>
>>
>>>> He didn't know this of course but she still had to be convincing and
>>>> firing that long shot that went through without hitting anything was a
>>>> smart part of the bluff.
>>> He does know what she can do. The question he had to judge was
>>> whether she could pull it off. Given her reputation, he judged that
>>> she did. She might have been bluffing, but is he going to risk what
>>> remains of his command on that?
>> What I said: she bluffed him/lied convincingly.
>
> Not really, given the information he had. He has just seen her wipe
> out a sizable fleet virtually instantaneously, from beyond "normal"
> range. He's seen her send a single small salvo right into the heart
> of his formation from an even more "impossible" range, and his
> counter-measures were ineffective. At the same time, you seem to be
> ignoring that Kuzak did not bring her light elements (BC's, CA's, and
> DD's) to the battle. They came later, along with 8'th Fleet's,
> driving off D'Amato's force from the terminus. He has no idea of
> where they are *now*, but he does know they're out there, and that
> they're not with Honor's fleet. Because he's lost his "eyes", he no
> longer has any idea of what else, if anything, has come through the
> Junction.

Yes through the junction. He has sensors on his ship and he knew where
Honor was. He isn't completely blind. If somebody does a hyper jump
around the system that is going to show up.


>
> That's the situation he's facing. He's got a damaged fleet. He's
> taken heavy losses. Yes, he can still destroy what remains of Third
> Fleet, and make a run for it, but he's got a limited arc to run to the
> hyper limit. There's an intact fleet out near the hyper limit, able
> to jump out along his most likely vector, with the ability to
> accurately control missle fire from very long distances. He doesn't
> know where a sizable force of "lighter" ships, some or many of them
> pod types, are.


And you don't think he couldn't detect them as easily as he can detect
Honor? You make a hyper jump and everybody knows it.


I believe DW said something long ago about the hyper limit being a much
bigger place than most people can imagine. He wasn't joking.

I won't disagree that she could get some of the ships. In a war it is
the admiral's job to save as much of his force to fight another day as
he can if he has to kill some of them to do it: tough.


They could be stationing themselves right now along
> his most likely escape route. They don't have to stop him, they just
> have to be able to delay him long enough for Honor's force to finish
> him off. His choices are to save his remaining people by
> surrendering, or take a chance that maybe, just maybe she's bluffing
> and he'll be able to run successfully. But, even if he does manage to
> get some of them out, he's still going to lose a lot of them for no
> purpose.

That is why they make you an admiral and pay you the big money.

>
> Finally, no, I don't recall DWW's statements, since I've never seen
> them. You keep referencing them in your posts, but the problem is not
> whether or not he said something in the past - it's that what he
> actually put in the books is at variance from what you're saying. I'm
> arguing from what was actually in the book, not on author comments at
> some point before the book was written.

After I think. How do you discuss something that hasn't happened?

You have fun now.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

pyotr filipivich wrote:
> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Dwight E.
> Howell" <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote on Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:30:54
> -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>> Not if those missiles depend on advanced control from the ship board
>> crew and you don't know what to tell them in time for it to matter.
>>
>> The control system has a time lag! In other word FTL communication's
>> is not instant.
>
> Not "instant" but compared to radio, it's seems like it. Sort of
> the difference between mailing a letter, sending a telegram, or using
> Email. There is a time lag on email, but the amount is "trivial" at
> the distances involved. (Up to and including the moon's orbit.)
> I don't recall how far apart the Havenite fleet is from 8th Fleet,
> but divide that by 60 to get the "effective" distance Theisman and co
> are from the Manties. Not instantaneous, but significant.
> Right now, Havenite communication is from New Years to Christmas
> day, while Manticore is from Christmas day to New Years. It isn't
> exactly symmetrical.


I don't disagree in fact my problem is that even with the limit which
may have been an after thought I think he completely warped the whole
thing by giving the SK such a huge tech edge and reacted very badly to
the story. It was beyond a doubt my least favorite book in the HH universe.

I'm also bothered by his insistence in not making any use of the new
assets the SK has gained mainly I think because it doesn't fit the
formula he has been following. I think he regretted the take overs but
they went with what he had created.

My problem is that to a person of my limited mental ability not using or
protecting valuable real estate seems rather lack witted. I don't see
the new citizens being at all happy with that kind of bleep either. They
joined or got drafted and they expect to be treated with some concern.

He is of course correct in saying that letting any force take out or
seriously damage Home System would end the war with the SK being
defeated but I don't agree that the SK can afford to let the Republic
run wild elsewhere. Manticore is rich because of trade and if that trade
is cut off it is no longer rich and can't maintain a huge high tech fleet.

Maybe I'll change my mind but I'm not in a big rush any more to see the
next book. You guys have fun and God bless.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:34:28 -0700, Loren Pechtel
<lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:01:22 GMT, Doug Jones
><norbrookc.DeleteThis@spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>>You need to vonsider Tourville's position. He is within the hyper
>>limit with a badly damaged fleet, what's left of Second Fleet still in
>>firing range, he's just seen one of his fleets wiped out virtually
>>instantaneously, and another set of missles fired from an impossibly
>>long range just waltzed through his formation's defenses. In order to
>>"just leave," he's got to disengage from one battle,and limp his
>>ships out to the hyper limit, all the while possibly taking
>>devastating fire from a fleet he can't even reach. I don't think she
>>had to lie convincingly - the situation was pretty much hopeless for
>>him.
>
>He saw the missiles waltz through but what he didn't know was that was
>all she could actually do, she couldn't command a sufficient number of
>missiles at that range to serious harm. All he had to do is keep the
>range open with her while disengaging.
>
>If she stays outside to cut him off she leaves Manticore open, it's
>orbital works are punched out. If she follows him in he simply keeps
>going and there's no way she can catch him.

But, as I said, he also knew there was a force of lighter elements out
there *somewhere*.
From the book:
--- quote ---
"Admiral Diamato's been forced to fall back to the Alpha Rendezvous,
Sir," Lieutenant Eisenberg reported.

"Damn," Molly DeLaney murmured, but Tourville only shrugged.

"It was bound to happen sooner or later, Molly. On the other hand, it
may actually be good news."

"Good news, Sir?"

"Well, they didn't bother to send through screening units to chase him
off before, because they were too busy bringing in their wallers. If
they've sent in battlecruisers and cruisers now, it probably confirms
that they've already got all their capital ships through the Junction.
In which case, this—" he nodded at the oncoming rash of scarlet icons,
already well inside their theoretical MDM range of his own battered
survivors "—probably is all we've got to deal with."
--end quote ---

As to the ability to command a sizeable number of missles:

----quote ---
Eighth Fleet released the five thousand Apollo pods which had been
tractored to its SD(P)s' hulls, then spent another three minutes
rolling additional pods. In all, it deployed a total of 7,776, almost
exactly half its total ammunition allotment, given the Andermani
ships' lighter magazine capacity.

Then it fired.

---end quote ---

So what you're telling me is that DW is now saying that she couldn't
control enough missiles, when he's already had her control a barrage
of half her entire ammunition allotment. Either that, or he's
postulating an attenuation of signal/control over very large
distances.

Tourville's dilemma is that he's in the equivalent of a valley. Maybe,
just maybe, he can start to move away from her. But, he doesn't know
if she has a blocking force of the lighter elements out. While in a
straight-up shooting match he could take out the lighter combatants,
his fleet is already heavily damaged, and it would delay him to fight
through them - giving Harrington time to move closer. He also doesn't
know whether there were any other SD's that came through or not - he's
been blinded. Equally problematic is that she controls the "high
ground". She's out near or at the hyper limit. She can "jump" to
meet him, and if he changes back towards Manticore, she can still
jump to block. It's a tactic she has used before - at Lovat, where
she used Yanakov's fleet to mousetrap the "relieving forces".
Remember, they came out of hyper, wiped out one group, hypered out to
take another. He has also just seen her put missles right through
his formation dodging counter-measures, and he's watched those same
missiles wipe out at least 68 SD's, and possibly 95 of them -
virtually immediately. No matter what, he's failed in his primary
mission.

Given that information, and taking what's in the book, Tourville has
no reason to believe she's bluffing, and it doesn't matter. He made
the correct decision based on the information he had.
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:56:25 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser made
Doug Jones <norbrookc.DeleteThis@spamlessfrontiernet.net> write:

>So what you're telling me is that DW is now saying that she couldn't
>control enough missiles, when he's already had her control a barrage
>of half her entire ammunition allotment. Either that, or he's
>postulating an attenuation of signal/control over very large
>distances.

That's exactly what he's saying.

DW has gone on record that it was the case... a point he intends
to make in the next book so we can see Tourville's reaction when /he/
finds out.


Harrington had the ability to control the entire wave of missiles
that wiped out Chin's fleet at something like 75 million km.

She could /not/ do the same at Tourville's range of 150 million
km.


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_ftl_comm_lag.htm

Third paragraph from the bottom.

-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

Doug Jones wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:34:28 -0700, Loren Pechtel
> <lorenpechtel RemoveThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:01:22 GMT, Doug Jones
>> <norbrookc RemoveThis @spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You need to vonsider Tourville's position. He is within the hyper
>>> limit with a badly damaged fleet, what's left of Second Fleet still in
>>> firing range, he's just seen one of his fleets wiped out virtually
>>> instantaneously, and another set of missles fired from an impossibly
>>> long range just waltzed through his formation's defenses. In order to
>>> "just leave," he's got to disengage from one battle,and limp his
>>> ships out to the hyper limit, all the while possibly taking
>>> devastating fire from a fleet he can't even reach. I don't think she
>>> had to lie convincingly - the situation was pretty much hopeless for
>>> him.
>> He saw the missiles waltz through but what he didn't know was that was
>> all she could actually do, she couldn't command a sufficient number of
>> missiles at that range to serious harm. All he had to do is keep the
>> range open with her while disengaging.
>>
>> If she stays outside to cut him off she leaves Manticore open, it's
>> orbital works are punched out. If she follows him in he simply keeps
>> going and there's no way she can catch him.
>
> But, as I said, he also knew there was a force of lighter elements out
> there *somewhere*.
> From the book:
> --- quote ---
> "Admiral Diamato's been forced to fall back to the Alpha Rendezvous,
> Sir," Lieutenant Eisenberg reported.
>
> "Damn," Molly DeLaney murmured, but Tourville only shrugged.
>
> "It was bound to happen sooner or later, Molly. On the other hand, it
> may actually be good news."
>
> "Good news, Sir?"
>
> "Well, they didn't bother to send through screening units to chase him
> off before, because they were too busy bringing in their wallers. If
> they've sent in battlecruisers and cruisers now, it probably confirms
> that they've already got all their capital ships through the Junction.
> In which case, this—" he nodded at the oncoming rash of scarlet icons,
> already well inside their theoretical MDM range of his own battered
> survivors "—probably is all we've got to deal with."
> --end quote ---
>
> As to the ability to command a sizeable number of missles:
>
> ----quote ---
> Eighth Fleet released the five thousand Apollo pods which had been
> tractored to its SD(P)s' hulls, then spent another three minutes
> rolling additional pods. In all, it deployed a total of 7,776, almost
> exactly half its total ammunition allotment, given the Andermani
> ships' lighter magazine capacity.
>
> Then it fired.
>
> ---end quote ---
>
> So what you're telling me is that DW is now saying that she couldn't
> control enough missiles, when he's already had her control a barrage
> of half her entire ammunition allotment. Either that, or he's
> postulating an attenuation of signal/control over very large
> distances.

If I understood the claim the greater the distance the less information
she can get and shove back through the system in a given amount of time.
At some point anything you send will be out of date by the time it arrives.

>
> Tourville's dilemma is that he's in the equivalent of a valley. Maybe,
> just maybe, he can start to move away from her. But, he doesn't know
> if she has a blocking force of the lighter elements out. While in a
> straight-up shooting match he could take out the lighter combatants,
> his fleet is already heavily damaged, and it would delay him to fight
> through them - giving Harrington time to move closer. He also doesn't
> know whether there were any other SD's that came through or not - he's
> been blinded. Equally problematic is that she controls the "high
> ground". She's out near or at the hyper limit. She can "jump" to
> meet him, and if he changes back towards Manticore, she can still
> jump to block. It's a tactic she has used before - at Lovat, where
> she used Yanakov's fleet to mousetrap the "relieving forces".
> Remember, they came out of hyper, wiped out one group, hypered out to
> take another. He has also just seen her put missles right through
> his formation dodging counter-measures, and he's watched those same
> missiles wipe out at least 68 SD's, and possibly 95 of them -
> virtually immediately. No matter what, he's failed in his primary
> mission.

Some of this would work if and only if he did things your way. I'm not
aware of any reason why he should.

>
> Given that information, and taking what's in the book, Tourville has
> no reason to believe she's bluffing, and it doesn't matter. He made
> the correct decision based on the information he had.

So who has disagreed about this last? If people had the information they
need they wouldn't fall for a bluff!
 >> Stay informed about: Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose? 

In article <hloi04dnirccakerhi7879j81qk4ic3j9n.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
Dahak <Dahak_II.RemoveThis@theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:56:25 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser made
> Doug Jones <norbrookc.RemoveThis@spamlessfrontiernet.net> write:
>
> >So what you're telling me is that DW is now saying that she couldn't
> >control enough missiles, when he's already had her control a barrage
> >of half her entire ammunition allotment. Either that, or he's
> >postulating an attenuation of signal/control over very large
> >distances.
>
> That's exactly what he's saying.
>
> DW has gone on record that it was the case... a point he intends
> to make in the next book so we can see Tourville's reaction wh