Anybody interested in seeing Manticore lose?

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:14:08 -0400, Don Sample <dsample.RemoveThis@synapse.net>
wrote:

>Given that Honor's still got a 16 second delay between what's happening,
>what her sensors are telling her, and when her orders can get back to
>her missiles, the missiles have to running pretty much autonomously for
>their counter-missile evasion. (This is true for pretty much any
>missile engagement.)

The whole point of Apollo is that they are *NOT*!
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On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:51:01 -0800, Offbreed
<offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> I doubt she could have spaced them that closely. She was using all
>> her comm capability to control those 60 missiles.
>
>I was startled that she had enough com capacity for two way video. That
>ability had to set Tourville back on his heels a little, too.

Depends on how good the video is. I've seen low-quality video over
dialup.
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In article <4814ad7e$0$31202$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:14:08 -0400, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Given that Honor's still got a 16 second delay between what's happening,
> >what her sensors are telling her, and when her orders can get back to
> >her missiles, the missiles have to running pretty much autonomously for
> >their counter-missile evasion. (This is true for pretty much any
> >missile engagement.)
>
> The whole point of Apollo is that they are *NOT*!

No. Apollo turned what would have been a 16 minute control loop delay
into a 16 second one. Even when she engaged Chin, Honor would have had
an 8 second control delay on her Apollo missiles.

Standard missile engagements used to take place at ranges like 5 million
kms, which gave the combatants a 30 second control loop delay on their
missiles.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
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On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:09:21 -0400, Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net>
wrote:

>In article <4814ad7e$0$31202$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
> Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel RemoveThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:14:08 -0400, Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Given that Honor's still got a 16 second delay between what's happening,
>> >what her sensors are telling her, and when her orders can get back to
>> >her missiles, the missiles have to running pretty much autonomously for
>> >their counter-missile evasion. (This is true for pretty much any
>> >missile engagement.)
>>
>> The whole point of Apollo is that they are *NOT*!
>
>No. Apollo turned what would have been a 16 minute control loop delay
>into a 16 second one. Even when she engaged Chin, Honor would have had
>an 8 second control delay on her Apollo missiles.
>
>Standard missile engagements used to take place at ranges like 5 million
>kms, which gave the combatants a 30 second control loop delay on their
>missiles.

But the point remains that the point of Apollo is to use shipboard
computing to run the penetration of the anti-missile zone.
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On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 02:54:22 -0500, Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net>
wrote:


> Speaking as someone who has banged out hundreds of pages of prose (some
> on an old mechanical typewriter, and more recently with one of those
> newfangled word processors--none of it of publishable quality) I have to
> say that even with modern tools, it really hasn't gotten all that much
> easier. While the mechanical act of putting words to paper has become
> simpler, the quality of those words hasn't changed.

When I started at Dryden, we wrote our technical papers in longhand
and the branch secretary typed the drafts from the manuscript. We
didn't cut and paste, though; we cut and taped. Papers went through
two layers of managerial review, followed each time by fairly minimal
revision and retyping. Then they went to peer review and, depending
on the subject, were sent to other field centers. Everyone had
comments and changes, but the level of changes was pretty limited.
Rewriting a sentence or swapping two paragraphs was about as big as it
got. Then the final draft went to the technical editor to be turned
into NASA English.

I was the first engineer to write a paper on a word processor, a DEC
with 8" floppy discs. I used the secretaries' machines when they
weren't. However, subsequent versions were created by the secretary.
By then, reviewers were asking for bigger changes than they did back
in the handwritten days (there was a brief period of recording
typewriters between the two). By the time I retired, all engineers
wrote and edited their own papers on computers and reviewers would
cheerfully ask the author to change the entire structure of the paper.
No secretaries involved; all keying was done by the engineers.

Progress certainly didn't save the engineers any time, although the
secretaries' workloads shifted. Rather, the engineer's time and
effort increased through progress. I will say that the drafts looked
much nicer, being in proportional type and justified and everything,
rather than being in monospace with a ragged margin and the math drawn
in by hand. I do not, however, believe that the papers were any
better. Nor, in general, are they any worse.

Mary "Also the first to write a paper in LaTeX"
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it.
reunite.gondwana DeleteThis @gmail.com or miliff DeleteThis @qnet.com
Visit my blog at http://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/
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J'hn1 wrote:
> On, 18 Apr 2008 23:22, Dwight E. Howell <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> I don't disagree in fact my problem is that even with the limit which
>> may have been an after thought I think he completely warped the whole
>> thing by giving the SK such a huge tech edge and reacted very badly to
>> the story.
>
> I suspect that the limitations as discussed on the other thread about
> how she *couldn't have engaged the Peep Second Fleet were meant as a
> limitation on that "huge tech edge". It just hasn't shown up in a book
> yet.
> That said, if he hadn't, the SKM would be over.
> Our Glorious former Aprilist President wound the mob up just as
> certainly as Cordelia Ransome ever did. Nothing less than SKM
> lifeblood would begin to slake that bloodlust.
> If Eloise tried to get in the way of the electorate and legislators
> that she herself wound up; after the Peep Navy finally destroyed the
> SKM's navy and system defense infrastructure, and Naval production
> capacity... she would be impeached for getting in the way. Her VP
> would be impeached. The Mob would get their way, no matter how vile
> the leader who finally promised (and delivered) up the corpse of the
> SKM for the People's feast.
> Look, the battle of First Manticore that you seem so dissatisfied with
> is almost a completely Phyriic victory. The Alliance is being outbuilt
> at about 3:1 and is starting the rebuild of its Navy at about 400
> SD(P) shortage, and most of the trained ship's crews that would be
> spread out among the new construction to leaven the newbies are
> instead, DEAD. and any new construction is at least a year away.
> The Alliance survivors of First Manticore have, between the Home
> Fleet, Third Fleet, and Eigth Fleet, less than half of what Home Fleet
> alone had previously. The SKM's portion of that is less than the whole
> (obviously).
>
> The SKM is not on the ropes, they are almost pushed over the top rope
> into the fifth row seating, and you are complaining about a tech
> advantage of the crippled survivors?
>
> Sheesh.


If one side has machine guns and the other side has spears. Yes it is
lop sided in favor of the guys with machine guns. If you can show up and
slaughter the other side with impunity it is over.


At some point the star kingdom is going to be able to send out a fleet
If the Peeps can't defend themselves...
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On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:57:01 -0500, "Dwight E. Howell"
<deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>J'hn1 wrote:
>> On, 18 Apr 2008 23:22, Dwight E. Howell <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> I don't disagree in fact my problem is that even with the limit which
>>> may have been an after thought I think he completely warped the whole
>>> thing by giving the SK such a huge tech edge and reacted very badly to
>>> the story.
>>
>> I suspect that the limitations as discussed on the other thread about
>> how she *couldn't have engaged the Peep Second Fleet were meant as a
>> limitation on that "huge tech edge". It just hasn't shown up in a book
>> yet.
snip
>> The SKM is not on the ropes, they are almost pushed over the top rope
>> into the fifth row seating, and you are complaining about a tech
>> advantage of the crippled survivors?
>>
>
>If one side has machine guns and the other side has spears. Yes it is
>lop sided in favor of the guys with machine guns. If you can show up and
>slaughter the other side with impunity it is over.
>
Umm, bad comparison. Similar (SDP) platform, similar damage inflicted
from hits, similar rate of fire, similar absolute range, ...

Try a comparison of two black powder muzzle loading rifles of the same
caliber, ignition system,and bullet weight.
First firing round balls from smoothbores,
and the second firing minnie balls from rifled barrels.
The ballistic range is not that different, but the maximum range at
which they are effective sure is, as well as just how effective they
are at that range. Point blank is still exactly the same.

>At some point the star kingdom is going to be able to send out a fleet
>If the Peeps can't defend themselves...

But the Peeps are going to have an additional thousand ships before
the first nonGrayson Alliance ship arrives (Remember the year before
more anderemani ships and a year and a half before SKM ones?). Lots of
things you can do with a 1400:100 advantage, like cut a swath through
the commercial life blood of the Alliance to where they cannot afford
to continue to build anything.
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On May 27, 7:57 pm, "Dwight E. Howell" <deo....DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> J'hn1 wrote:
> > On, 18 Apr 2008 23:22, Dwight E. Howell <deo....DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> I don't disagree in fact my problem is that even with the limit which
> >> may have been an after thought I think he completely warped the whole
> >> thing by giving the SK such a huge tech edge and reacted very badly to
> >> the story.
>
> > I suspect that the limitations as discussed on the other thread about
> > how she *couldn't have engaged the Peep Second Fleet were meant as a
> > limitation on that "huge tech edge". It just hasn't shown up in a book
> > yet.
> > That said, if he hadn't, the SKM would be over.
> > Our Glorious former Aprilist President wound the mob up just as
> > certainly as Cordelia Ransome ever did. Nothing less than SKM
> > lifeblood would begin to slake that bloodlust.
> > If Eloise tried to get in the way of the electorate and legislators
> > that she herself wound up; after the Peep Navy finally destroyed the
> > SKM's navy and system defense infrastructure, and Naval production
> > capacity... she would be impeached for getting in the way. Her VP
> > would be impeached. The Mob would get their way, no matter how vile
> > the leader who finally promised (and delivered) up the corpse of the
> > SKM for the People's feast.
> > Look, the battle of First Manticore that you seem so dissatisfied with
> > is almost a completely Phyriic victory. The Alliance is being outbuilt
> > at about 3:1 and is starting the rebuild of its Navy at about 400
> > SD(P) shortage, and most of the trained ship's crews that would be
> > spread out among the new construction to leaven the newbies are
> > instead, DEAD. and any new construction is at least a year away.
> > The Alliance survivors of First Manticore have, between the Home
> > Fleet, Third Fleet, and Eigth Fleet, less than half of what Home Fleet
> > alone had previously. The SKM's portion of that is less than the whole
> > (obviously).
>
> > The SKM is not on the ropes, they are almost pushed over the top rope
> > into the fifth row seating, and you are complaining about a tech
> > advantage of the crippled survivors?
>
> > Sheesh.
>
> If one side has machine guns and the other side has spears. Yes it is
> lop sided in favor of the guys with machine guns. If you can show up and
> slaughter the other side with impunity it is over.
>
> At some point the star kingdom is going to be able to send out a fleet
> If the Peeps can't defend themselves...

One of the things we can easily forget is that the pace of the war is
glacial.

Doing more than a raid takes months. Sending a single task force to
raid a lot of systems will take over a year, possibly several as the
nearest systems are crossed off of the target list. Technologically
catching up takes less time than forging ahead. Tyranny of numbers
means that the Republic of Haven has a larger pool of brain talent
than the Star Kingdom, so it is just a matter of finding them and
gettng them to where they can do the most good, like Forraker and
Diamante.

If the RMN sends out an invincible fleet, what is defending Manticore?

Alliance production is flattenning, while the Republic is cranking out
not just hulls, but yards.
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