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Should libraries compete with used bookdealers?

 
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user1178

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Since: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 91



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:53 pm
Post subject: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers?
Archived from groups: rec>collecting>books (more info?)

The idea of libraries going on-line to compete with used bookdealers
troubles me a bit. Admittedly, my negative feelings arise from
self interest. After all, on more than one occasion I have bought
a book for a dollar or two at a local library store, paying, that
is, a price far lower than the used bookstores in my region would
have charged.

But that's the fun of going to the library store, isn't it? The
excitement of bargain hunting, I mean. If my local library store
started charging as much as a typical used bookstore, then I would
not bother patronizing the library store at all. It would simply
have become a sort of one-car garage-sized mini-used bookstore run
by volunteer clerks who are generally not very knowledgeable of
books. In other words, in that particular scenario, the prices
would be the same as at the local used book stores, but the stock
would be annoyingly limited.

Anyway, I know for a fact that some library bookstores are
competing with used bookstores. A neighbor of mine who does
not use the net wanted some help finding an out of print book.
I checked all the big services, Abebooks, Amazon, etc. with
no success in locating the volume. Then, as a final stab at
helping, I did a general Yahoo search for the book and found
that one such book was in fact on sale -- at the Newport Rhode
Island donated-book library store! The price was about the
same as what my neighbor led me to expect the book would be
going for, about $75. It was no bargain, in other words,
but after all they had an item no one else did, putting them
in a position that all used bookstores love to find themselves
in.

While my neighbor was delighted, I was given pause to wonder
if this sort of thing would not become a trend with library
stores: jump into the book business and charge what the
traffic will bear, just like a typical used bookstore.

On top of that, when I went to my local library store today,
I had a brief conversation with the volunteer, and she said
this library is thinking about doing the same thing as the
Newport Rhode Island public library: creaming off the more
valuable books and selling them on the net.

From a business standpoint, here is what libraries should
consider: Yes, they can no doubt get much than they have
been charging for some books, if they do research on every
volume that looks remotely valuable. On the other hand,
if they start charging top dollar, then their books won't
sell nearly as fast, and a lot of them will end up like
those overpriced books on Abe that are listed month after
month. And, as I have already suggested, they
will risk losing a lot of business by going from being
an alluring treasure trove to just a very limited little
used bookstore staffed by volunteer non-professionals and
charging the same prices as other bookstores in the area
(or other bookdealers on the net).

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johnastovall

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Since: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 252



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 20 Jul 2004 19:53:30 -0700, palmer.william RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net (Bill
Palmer) wrote:

 >The idea of libraries going on-line to compete with used bookdealers
 >troubles me a bit. Admittedly, my negative feelings arise from
 >self interest. After all, on more than one occasion I have bought
 >a book for a dollar or two at a local library store, paying, that
 >is, a price far lower than the used bookstores in my region would
 >have charged.

As a member of the local library board, we are being forced to into
this situation by the constant reduction of our funding from state and
local government. If we are to stay open and provide services to the
community, we have to try everything possible to raise extra money.

When the city which provides a large part of your funding asks, "Why
are you selling valuable books for a dollar and then asking us for
more money?", you have to respond with higher prices and other sales
venues.

It's not greed but an economic fact in a world which cares very little
for libraries.


********************************************************

"The fox knows many things, but
the hedgehog knows one big thing."

Archilochus
675 - 635 B.C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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llm040609

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Since: Jul 18, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cilsf01j4b7lcrf4l5p3i8iv44sh22bqd2@4ax.com...

 > When the city which provides a large part of your funding asks, "Why
 > are you selling valuable books for a dollar and then asking us for
 > more money?", you have to respond with higher prices and other sales
 > venues.

Here is the answer: "Because our best customers are book dealers, and when
they realize that we are skimming the most desirable books to sell at market
prices they will stop coming to our sales, so that we will end up making
less money than we do now."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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johnastovall

External


Since: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 252



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:33:55 GMT, "Jonathan Sachs"
<llm040609.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:

 >"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
 >news:cilsf01j4b7lcrf4l5p3i8iv44sh22bqd2@4ax.com...
 >
  >> When the city which provides a large part of your funding asks, "Why
  >> are you selling valuable books for a dollar and then asking us for
  >> more money?", you have to respond with higher prices and other sales
  >> venues.
 >
 >Here is the answer: "Because our best customers are book dealers, and when
 >they realize that we are skimming the most desirable books to sell at market
 >prices they will stop coming to our sales, so that we will end up making
 >less money than we do now."
 >

We would have to show hard numbers to prove that case. Ask me in a
year, and I should know.

Do you know of any studies which show this? Those are the questions
City Manager and Council are going to ask.

You are thinking like a bookseller not a city bean counter.


********************************************************

"To sum up, one does not hunt in order to kill;
on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."

"The Ethics of Hunting" from
"Meditations on Hunting"
by José Ortega y Gasset<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mjadams28

External


Since: May 14, 2004
Posts: 261



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Jonathan Sachs" <llm040609.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TotLc.9058$mL5.7147@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
 > "John A. Stovall" <johnastovall.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
 > news:cilsf01j4b7lcrf4l5p3i8iv44sh22bqd2@4ax.com...
 >
  > > When the city which provides a large part of your funding asks, "Why
  > > are you selling valuable books for a dollar and then asking us for
  > > more money?", you have to respond with higher prices and other sales
  > > venues.
 >
 > Here is the answer: "Because our best customers are book dealers,
 > and when they realize that we are skimming the most desirable books
 > to sell at market prices they will stop coming to our sales, so that
 > we will end up making less money than we do now."
 >

But that surely rests on the assumption that bookdealers would buy
the less desirable books under any circumstances. Are you saying
that if libraries retain the more desirable books in their sales,
bookdealers will definitely buy both those, and the less desirable
books in quantity as well?

Because nobody would get that impression from reading some of the
latest Library Sale threads that's for sure.

Your argument seems to be based on the suggestion that if you
allow dealers to buy the better books at knock down prices,
that will somehow encourage them to buy poor quality stuff they
wouldn't otherwise consider. But why? Why shouldnt they just buy
the better stuff - in maybe the first hour of the sale - and
then just simply leave?

Or is the suggestion that some bookdealers do actually try and
compensate the libraries in some way. By buying marginal material
as a token of gratitude ?



michael adams




 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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grobe

External


Since: Nov 09, 2003
Posts: 22



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <2m77j1Fjjq1kU1.TakeThisOut@uni-berlin.de>, michael adams wrote:
 >
 >"Jonathan Sachs" <llm040609.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote in message
 >news:TotLc.9058$mL5.7147@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
  >>
  >> Here is the answer: "Because our best customers are book dealers,
  >> and when they realize that we are skimming the most desirable books
  >> to sell at market prices they will stop coming to our sales, so that
  >> we will end up making less money than we do now."
  >>
 >
 >But that surely rests on the assumption that bookdealers would buy
 >the less desirable books under any circumstances. Are you saying
 >that if libraries retain the more desirable books in their sales,
 >bookdealers will definitely buy both those, and the less desirable
 >books in quantity as well?
 >
 >Because nobody would get that impression from reading some of the
 >latest Library Sale threads that's for sure.
 >
 >Your argument seems to be based on the suggestion that if you
 >allow dealers to buy the better books at knock down prices,
 >that will somehow encourage them to buy poor quality stuff they
 >wouldn't otherwise consider. But why? Why shouldnt they just buy
 >the better stuff - in maybe the first hour of the sale - and
 >then just simply leave?
 >
 >Or is the suggestion that some bookdealers do actually try and
 >compensate the libraries in some way. By buying marginal material
 >as a token of gratitude ?

No, the argument is that booksellers won't come to the sale at all
if it is not economically worthwhile. If the sale is just marginal
material it is not worth it to travel a significant distance to the
sale (the local dealers would probably still come). All customers
buy what they consider desirable. But what is mostly desired by
the general public is common popular material. They will only
buy a book if they are interested in it. But there are lots of
specialized books for which no one will be interested in reading.
A dealer will buy these books knowing there are customers online
or among his customers for these specialized books.

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.grobebooks.com" target="_blank">http://www.grobebooks.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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llm040609

External


Since: Jul 18, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"michael adams" <mjadams28 DeleteThis @onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:2m77j1Fjjq1kU1@uni-berlin.de...

 >Your argument seems to be based on the suggestion that if you
 >allow dealers to buy the better books at knock down prices,
 >that will somehow encourage them to buy poor quality stuff they
 >wouldn't otherwise consider. But why?

Because they are there.

Some dealers drive hundreds of miles to attend a good sale. Once they are
there, the marginal cost of buying the less valuable books is pretty low.
But the perceived value necessary to make them show up in the first place is
pretty high.

When I go to a book sale I consider it "good" if I find three dozen books or
so that are worth buying. But typically a half-dozen books of those books
make the sale worthwhile, and if I knew those books were unlikely to be
found, I would not bother to go.

I see other people, more serious and/or better informed than myself, leave
these sales with hundreds of books. I assure you that their proportions of
"worth buying" to "worth coming for" are about the same.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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llm040609

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Since: Jul 18, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gqosf09qa7q0ftcaohja3coo6ud13t3r1c@4ax.com...

 > Do you know of any studies which show this? Those are the questions
 > City Manager and Council are going to ask.

You had better figure this out without making the change, which will be
difficult to undo once done. When the dealers no longer come to your sales
they will not know when you have stopped skimming again.

You can determine who the dealers and how much they buy by observing the
number and variety of books that each buyer takes away.

As for whether dealers will stop coming if you skim, ask them.

BTW, I think your city bean counters need a reality check on their attitude
toward book sales. It sounds like they are trying to deal with a volunteer
organization as if it were civil service. They need to be told (more
diplomatically than this, of course): "Skimming and selling the best books
would require an encyclopedic knowledge of the market, which few if any of
our volunteers have, and substantial amounts of additional time and labor,
which few if any would be willing to give. If you think you can do better by
hiring professionals at competitive wages, you are dreaming. If you think
you can hire high school kids to do it at all, you are also dreaming. Since
you are stuck with volunteers, you had best show some respect for their
capabilities and priorities."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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johnastovall

External


Since: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 252



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:01:33 GMT, "Jonathan Sachs"
<llm040609 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:

 >"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
 >news:gqosf09qa7q0ftcaohja3coo6ud13t3r1c@4ax.com...
 >
  >> Do you know of any studies which show this? Those are the questions
  >> City Manager and Council are going to ask.
 >
 >You had better figure this out without making the change, which will be
 >difficult to undo once done. When the dealers no longer come to your sales
 >they will not know when you have stopped skimming again.
 >
 >You can determine who the dealers and how much they buy by observing the
 >number and variety of books that each buyer takes away.
 >
 >As for whether dealers will stop coming if you skim, ask them.
 >
 >BTW, I think your city bean counters need a reality check on their attitude
 >toward book sales. It sounds like they are trying to deal with a volunteer
 >organization as if it were civil service. They need to be told (more
 >diplomatically than this, of course): "Skimming and selling the best books
 >would require an encyclopedic knowledge of the market, which few if any of
 >our volunteers have, and substantial amounts of additional time and labor,
 >which few if any would be willing to give. If you think you can do better by
 >hiring professionals at competitive wages, you are dreaming. If you think
 >you can hire high school kids to do it at all, you are also dreaming. Since
 >you are stuck with volunteers, you had best show some respect for their
 >capabilities and priorities."
 >

All they see in a book sale are things going cheap which they see
bring more on eBay or such. Have you ever worked with a city
government on budget matters?

They hear of other cities doing it and say, "Why don't we?".

They don't care about knowledge of markets or volunteers time or
capabilities. Volunteers don't cost them and if the library can get 5
dollars for a book on eBay rather than a dollar at a book sale so much
the better.




*******************************************************

""Lord!" he said, "when you sell a man a book you don't
sell him twelve ounces of paper and ink and glue - you
sell him a whole new life....""

"Parnassus on Wheels"
by Christopher Morley<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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slangtruth

External


Since: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 60



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:55:44 +0000 (UTC), grobe DeleteThis @netins.net (Jonathan
Grobe) wrote:


 >No, the argument is that booksellers won't come to the sale at all
 >if it is not economically worthwhile. If the sale is just marginal
 >material it is not worth it to travel a significant distance to the
 >sale (the local dealers would probably still come). All customers
 >buy what they consider desirable. But what is mostly desired by
 >the general public is common popular material. They will only
 >buy a book if they are interested in it. But there are lots of
 >specialized books for which no one will be interested in reading.
 >A dealer will buy these books knowing there are customers online
 >or among his customers for these specialized books.

So you're saying that now, the bookdealers come to the sale, and buy
the valuable plums that the general public is unlikely to buy, and the
hoi polloi comes in and buys (some of) the other stuff. If the library
pulls those obscure but valuable plums and sells them online for more
than the dollar they're typically priced at at library sales, the
dealers stop coming, and the general public comes in and buys what
they would have bought anyway, how has the library lost out? I can
see that they may have lost the revenue from the dealer's "mistakes",
but compared to their gain in selling a $60 retail book for that or
even $40 rather than a dollar should more than make up for that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mjadams28

External


Since: May 14, 2004
Posts: 261



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jonathan Sachs" <llm040609.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4GuLc.9084$mL5.3354@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
 > "michael adams" <mjadams28.RemoveThis@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
 > news:2m77j1Fjjq1kU1@uni-berlin.de...
 >
  > >Your argument seems to be based on the suggestion that if you
  > >allow dealers to buy the better books at knock down prices,
  > >that will somehow encourage them to buy poor quality stuff they
  > >wouldn't otherwise consider. But why?
 >
 > Because they are there.
 >
 > Some dealers drive hundreds of miles to attend a good sale. Once
 > they are there, the marginal cost of buying the less valuable books
 > is pretty low. But the perceived value necessary to make them show
 > up in the first place is pretty high.


Point taken.




michael adams<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mjadams28

External


Since: May 14, 2004
Posts: 261



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Jonathan Grobe" <grobe DeleteThis @netins.net> wrote in message
news:slrncfstf0.qk3.grobe@worf.netins.net...
 > In article <2m77j1Fjjq1kU1 DeleteThis @uni-berlin.de>, michael adams wrote:
  > >
  > >"Jonathan Sachs" <llm040609 DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
  > >news:TotLc.9058$mL5.7147@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
   > >>
   > >> Here is the answer: "Because our best customers are book dealers,
   > >> and when they realize that we are skimming the most desirable books
   > >> to sell at market prices they will stop coming to our sales, so that
   > >> we will end up making less money than we do now."
   > >>
  > >
  > >But that surely rests on the assumption that bookdealers would buy
  > >the less desirable books under any circumstances. Are you saying
  > >that if libraries retain the more desirable books in their sales,
  > >bookdealers will definitely buy both those, and the less desirable
  > >books in quantity as well?
  > >
  > >Because nobody would get that impression from reading some of the
  > >latest Library Sale threads that's for sure.
  > >
  > >Your argument seems to be based on the suggestion that if you
  > >allow dealers to buy the better books at knock down prices,
  > >that will somehow encourage them to buy poor quality stuff they
  > >wouldn't otherwise consider. But why? Why shouldnt they just buy
  > >the better stuff - in maybe the first hour of the sale - and
  > >then just simply leave?
  > >
  > >Or is the suggestion that some bookdealers do actually try and
  > >compensate the libraries in some way. By buying marginal material
  > >as a token of gratitude ?
 >
 > No, the argument is that booksellers won't come to the sale at all
 > if it is not economically worthwhile. If the sale is just marginal
 > material it is not worth it to travel a significant distance to the
 > sale (the local dealers would probably still come). All customers
 > buy what they consider desirable. But what is mostly desired by
 > the general public is common popular material. They will only
 > buy a book if they are interested in it. But there are lots of
 > specialized books for which no one will be interested in reading.
 > A dealer will buy these books knowing there are customers online
 > or among his customers for these specialized books.
 >
 > --
 > Jonathan Grobe Books
 > Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.grobebooks.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.grobebooks.com</font</a>>
 >

Again as with my response to Jonathan Sachs, point taken. Speaking from
the UK its hard to visualise the sorts of distances travelled and thus
the costs which dealers may need to incur in travelling to Library Sales.
Which is hardly a good basis for an argument. I'll get me coat...



michael adams<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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hschinske

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Since: Jul 18, 2003
Posts: 190



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 >"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
 >news:cilsf01j4b7lcrf4l5p3i8iv44sh22bqd2@4ax.com...
 >
  >> When the city which provides a large part of your funding asks, "Why
  >> are you selling valuable books for a dollar and then asking us for
  >> more money?", you have to respond with higher prices and other sales
  >> venues.

Geez. Does this mean that instead of holding bake sales, our local PTAs should
be opening bakeries?

--Helen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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hschinske

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Since: Jul 18, 2003
Posts: 190



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:39 pm
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johnastovall DeleteThis @earthlink.net wrote:

 >They hear of other cities doing it and say, "Why don't we?".

I hear of other cities actually (gasp) TAXING the populace at appropriate
levels, in order to pay for what after all is a classic public good.

Why don't we?

--Helen<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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johnastovall

External


Since: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 252



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 21 Jul 2004 15:39:51 GMT, hschinske.DeleteThis@aol.com (H Schinske) wrote:

 >johnastovall@earthlink.net wrote:
 >
  >>They hear of other cities doing it and say, "Why don't we?".
 >
 >I hear of other cities actually (gasp) TAXING the populace at appropriate
 >levels, in order to pay for what after all is a classic public good.
 >
 >Why don't we?

Because the majority of tax payers don't see it as a "public good".
They don't call if hours are cut but they do call if street and water
don't function.


********************************************************

"To sum up, one does not hunt in order to kill;
on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."

"The Ethics of Hunting" from
"Meditations on Hunting"
by José Ortega y Gasset<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Should libraries compete with used bookdealers? 
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