Where is the love in Narnia?

On 16 Oct 2005 02:44:39 -0700, "Writemom" <writemom.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com> wrote:

/snip/


>So other examples that I can quickly think of are:
>
>Tumnus the Faun,

Who did he love? Lucy did seem fond of him.

>Mr and Mrs Beaver,

Presumably loved each other, but not much said or shown about it.

>the animals that go to rescue
>Edmund - all of whom put their lives in danger to help others.
>
>Any other thoughts?

The dogs in THE LAST BATTLE.

Somewhere the word 'love' is acually used, after some battle. Reepicheep
was wounded and lost his tail and asked Aslan to reattach it. Aslan said he
was too attached to it and refused, and (I quote from memory) -- "But why
have all the other mice drawn their swords? Do they propose to attack me?"
"We stand ready to strike off our own tails. We will not bear the
shame of an honor denied to our leader."

So Aslan roared that their "love" had conquered him, and replaced the tail.

Lucy loved the trees that she nearly woke, and the fauns. Aslan 'liked the
dwarf very much' (Trumpkin in PRINCE CASPIAN.)


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

On 16 Oct 2005 23:21:07 -0700, "Writemom" <writemom RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:

>Given CSL's views on love and society's general watering-down of the
>concept (see The Four Loves) I think it hardly surprising that he does
>not use the word very much. Perhaps this is what Pullman is looking
>for, rather then for examples of deeds that demonstrate Christian love
>or charity - kindness, patience, humility, and putting others first,
>including being willing to die for them. "Greater love hath no
>man...etc."

While growing up, Pullman got pretty saturated in Prayer Book of 1642(?)
culture spending time with his very nice grandfather iirc who was a
conventional English clergyman, roughly of the generation of Lewis's
father. So culturally they are more contemporary than one might expect. I
expect Pullman knew quite well what "Christian charity" meant in that
culture.

Whether the Observer quoted him correctly, and whether he was grandstanding
or something, is another question. Might find out at his website.

>Again, I would suggest that Tumnus and the Beavers all demonstrated
>these traits, putting themselves in mortal danger for the sake of the
>children, whilst not being overtly "loving" in the more common sense of
>the word.

I'm not sure either of those is what I associate with the term 'Christian
charity' in what little I know of that English P B o 1642 culture. I
thought the characters were mostly doing those good deeds as service to
Aslan; in obedience or being tested etc.


Bree
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"Writemom" wrote:

> Philip Pullman has, of course, stepped forth with all guns righteously
> blazing to "protect" children from the underlying evil message of the
> new LWW movie. To quote from today's Observer:

I think a Freudian would diagnose an Oedipus complex at work in PP. I
don't, but he obviously sees Lewis as competition.

> 'It's not the presence of Christian doctrine I object to so much as the
> absence of Christian virtue. The highest virtue, we have on the
> authority of the New Testament itself, is love, and yet you find not a
> trace of that in the books,' he said.
>
> The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'.
>
> So, in answer to Pullman and those of like mind, where is the love and
> charity in Narnia, and specifically, in LWW?

As a negative example, I think of the Witch turning the Christmas party to
stone. Lewis didn't wear his heart on his sleeve the way we expect people
to today. PP may be a great writer for all I know, but I'm not attracted to
his work by the uncharitable and unloving things he says about Lewis.
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:17:04 GMT, "Christopher J. Henrich"
<chenrich.DeleteThis@monmouth.com> wrote:

>In article <43536b27.DeleteThis@212.67.96.135>, Siwel Naph
><toomuchspam.DeleteThis@spammer.org> wrote:

/snip ad hominems/

>> > So, in answer to Pullman and those of like mind, where is the love and
>> > charity in Narnia, and specifically, in LWW?
>>
>> As a negative example, I think of the Witch turning the Christmas party to
>> stone. Lewis didn't wear his heart on his sleeve the way we expect people
>> to today.

>And his characters don't either. Maybe it's an English thing - "stiff
>upper lip" and all that - but Lewis seems to have been unusually
>reticent, even for an Englishman.


Aslan loved Narnia and the characters. The characters loved Aslan and
Narnia. (In LAST BATTLE, someone said something like 'we loved Narnia
because it sometimes reminded us a little of this place'.) I'm sure some
individuals loved each other (Lucy hugging Reepicheep at the end of VOYAGE
OF THE DAWN TREADER). But I don't see them singling out individuals to
love.... Which of course wouldn't be agape anyway.

I don't see in Narnia the intense one-to-one, sacrificial (tho not agape)
love that occurs in Pullman: the bear and Serafina and Lee becoming very
attached to this strange girl, making a quest of helping her.... The
villians eventually sacrificing their lives for her.... (Not to mention the
obvious simple love between Lyra and Will and Lyra and Roger, and L's love
for the bear and for Lee and for Serafina....) In Narnia everything seems
to be mediated through obedience to Aslan.

It's the world in HDM that seems to lack the atmosphere of love in Narnia;
HDM's world is colder, crueler.... Overall I see the world of Narnia
saturated in love, made of love; loved by the author and by the reader. The
characters *are* loveable....

But I don't think any of this is much like what Pullman's C of E
grandfather would have called 'Christian charity'. (I have an impression of
P's grandfather being kind of like the clergyman grandfather in Goudge's A
CITY OF BELLS.)


Bree
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

In article <1129455879.011371.108600.RemoveThis@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Writemom <writemom.RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Philip Pullman has, of course, stepped forth with all guns righteously
>blazing to "protect" children from the underlying evil message of the
>new LWW movie.
[...]
>So, in answer to Pullman and those of like mind, where is the love and
>charity in Narnia, and specifically, in LWW?
[...]
>Tumnus the Faun, Mr and Mrs Beaver, the animals that go to rescue
>Edmund - all of whom put their lives in danger to help others.

In the words of Londo Mollari, "I believe you have it surrounded."

Mr. Pullman is, alas, a fanatical religious bigot, and his
opinions of Narnia and anything else by Lewis are colored
by the filter of his bigotry.


(Using Churhill's definition of a "fanatic" as someone who
can't change his mind and won't change the subject -- Pullman
never seems to talk about anything else but the evil of theism.
Most other atheists seem to have wider interests.)

--
Tagon: "Where's your sense of adventure?" | Mike Van Pelt
Kevyn: "It died under mysterious circumstances. | mvp at calweb.com
My sense of self-preservation found the body, | KE6BVH
but assures me it has an airtight alibi." (schlockmercenary.com)
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

Siwel Naph wrote:
> "Writemom" wrote:
>
> > Philip Pullman has, of course, stepped forth with all guns righteously
> > blazing to "protect" children from the underlying evil message of the
> > new LWW movie. To quote from today's Observer:
>
> I think a Freudian would diagnose an Oedipus complex at work in PP. I
> don't, but he obviously sees Lewis as competition.
>
> > 'It's not the presence of Christian doctrine I object to so much as the
> > absence of Christian virtue. The highest virtue, we have on the
> > authority of the New Testament itself, is love, and yet you find not a
> > trace of that in the books,' he said.
> >
> > The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> > racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> > Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'.
> >
> > So, in answer to Pullman and those of like mind, where is the love and
> > charity in Narnia, and specifically, in LWW?
>
> As a negative example, I think of the Witch turning the Christmas party to
> stone. Lewis didn't wear his heart on his sleeve the way we expect people
> to today. PP may be a great writer for all I know, but I'm not attracted to
> his work by the uncharitable and unloving things he says about Lewis.
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

>
> As a negative example, I think of the Witch turning the Christmas party to
> stone. Lewis didn't wear his heart on his sleeve the way we expect people
> to today.


Help me please, was Narnia written before he learned to love Joy? I
think he had some rather peculiar ideas about love before that.
Something to the effect that sexual love should be satisfied with one
encounter and needent be endlessly repeated. Lewis was a brilliant man,
very insightful in many ways, but I wouldn't consider him an expert
observer of the human condition

Daryl
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

It's generally best to ignore fatheads like Pullman. And dont believe him -
it IS the presence of Christian doctrine that bothers him.
_________________

"Writemom" <writemom.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1129455879.011371.108600@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Philip Pullman has, of course, stepped forth with all guns righteously
> blazing to "protect" children from the underlying evil message of the
> new LWW movie. To quote from today's Observer:
>
> 'It's not the presence of Christian doctrine I object to so much as the
> absence of Christian virtue. The highest virtue, we have on the
> authority of the New Testament itself, is love, and yet you find not a
> trace of that in the books,' he said.
>
> The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'.
>
> So, in answer to Pullman and those of like mind, where is the love and
> charity in Narnia, and specifically, in LWW?
>
> Aslan, naturally, immediately comes to mind, but perhaps his sacrifice
> would not be accepted by Pullman as an example of Christian love and
> charity as he is not one of the "ordinary" characters. So other
> examples that I can quickly think of are:
>
> Tumnus the Faun, Mr and Mrs Beaver, the animals that go to rescue
> Edmund - all of whom put their lives in danger to help others.
>
> Any other thoughts?
>
> WM
>
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

>'It's not the presence of Christian doctrine I object to so much as the
>absence of Christian virtue. The highest virtue, we have on the
>authority of the New Testament itself, is love, and yet you find not a
>trace of that in the books,' he said.

>The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
>racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
>Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'.

Kind of like Nelson putting the telescope to his blind eye and saying
"I see no ships."

Pullman is one that you can't take seriously. He's practically
plagiarized the books for his own work, and then spent a life obsessing
on them. His criticisms are usually twisted misinterpretations at
worst, or vague, empty and non-specific at best (as in this example).

As soon as I heard him say that Susan went to hell for wearing makeup,
his credibility sank to zero with me. He simply hears what he wants to
hear. Think of the dwarfs in the stable, and you have Philip Pullman.
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

Robert wrote:

> It's generally best to ignore fatheads like Pullman. And dont believe him -
> it IS the presence of Christian doctrine that bothers him.
> _________________
>
> "Writemom" <writemom.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:1129455879.011371.108600@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Philip Pullman has, of course, stepped forth with all guns righteously
> > blazing to "protect" children from the underlying evil message of the
> > new LWW movie. To quote from today's Observer:
> >
> > 'It's not the presence of Christian doctrine I object to so much as the
> > absence of Christian virtue. The highest virtue, we have on the
> > authority of the New Testament itself, is love, and yet you find not a
> > trace of that in the books,' he said.
> >
> > The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
> > racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
> > Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'.
> >
> > So, in answer to Pullman and those of like mind, where is the love and
> > charity in Narnia, and specifically, in LWW?
> >
> > Aslan, naturally, immediately comes to mind, but perhaps his sacrifice
> > would not be accepted by Pullman as an example of Christian love and
> > charity as he is not one of the "ordinary" characters. So other
> > examples that I can quickly think of are:
> >
> > Tumnus the Faun, Mr and Mrs Beaver, the animals that go to rescue
> > Edmund - all of whom put their lives in danger to help others.
> >
> > Any other thoughts?

And Edmund himself charging the White Witch to take out her wand.
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

On 20 Dec 2005 13:33:54 -0800, "Graeme" <graemecree.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:

>>'It's not the presence of Christian doctrine I object to so much as the
>>absence of Christian virtue. The highest virtue, we have on the
>>authority of the New Testament itself, is love, and yet you find not a
>>trace of that in the books,' he said.
>
>>The Narnia books, Pullman said, contained '...a peevish blend of
>>racist, misogynistic and reactionary prejudice; but of love, of
>>Christian charity, [there is] not a trace'.


Lewis isn't perfect. He and Narnia do have a few warts, tho imo the good
elements are much larger and more important.

I think it's nice that Pullman is defending the religion his grandfather
the Rector taught him, even tho he no longer believes it true.

/snip/

>Pullman is one that you can't take seriously. He's practically
>plagiarized the books for his own work


Now that is really an inaccurate statement. Have you read THE GOLDEN
COMPASS, THE SUBTLE KNIFE, and THE AMBER SPYGLASS?


--
Bree
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Bree (bree@bree.com) wrote:
> "Graeme" <graemecree.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Pullman is one that you can't take seriously. He's practically
>>plagiarized the books for his own work
>
>
> Now that is really an inaccurate statement. Have you read THE
> GOLDEN COMPASS, THE SUBTLE KNIFE, and THE AMBER SPYGLASS?
>

For my part, I got less than a hundred pages into The Golden Compass.
The first chapter or two were really intriguing. Then it got dull. I
didn't consciously decide not to continue reading it. I just sort of
put it down and found that I never wondered what happened next. So I
never picked it up again. That was about four years ago.

That said, I would agree that the first hundred pages of The Golden
Compass are not at all plagiarized from Narnia or any other work.

--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
 >> Stay informed about: Where is the love in Narnia? 

On 21 Dec 2005 19:19:59 GMT, Opus the Penguin
<opusthepenguin+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

/snip/

>For my part, I got less than a hundred pages into The Golden Compass.
>The first chapter or two were really intriguing. Then it got dull. I
>didn't consciously decide not to continue reading it. I just sort of
>put it down and found that I never wondered what happened next. So I
>never picked it up again. That was about four years ago.

Well, I never made it quite all the way through either. As a Narnia fan,
I took revenge by reading them out of order. Since there weren't seven to
shuffle, I read bits out of order within the books.


>That said, I would agree that the first hundred pages of The Golden
>Compass are not at all plagiarized from Narnia or any other work.

Nor the rest I read, nor any other, going by what I've heard about the
rest.


--
Bree
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