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mike_in_the_west

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Since: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 13



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:01 pm
Post subject: magic rings
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)

I recently skimmed thru MN (The Magician's Nephew). Maybe the group can
clarify some questions about the magic rings used by Digory and Polly
to cross into the Wood between the Worlds.

(I'm trying to iron out what seem to be some important internal
inconsistencies in the Narnia books.)

1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
would have been."

2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.

I don't think these are nitpicks, but I could be mistaken Wink

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user302

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Since: Oct 11, 2003
Posts: 84



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:17 pm
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <1140926485.075832.310840.RemoveThis@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
"mike_in_the_west" <mhcole.RemoveThis@mac.com> wrote:

> 1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
> have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
> Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
> book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
> would have been."

I _think_ the effective rule here is that if you make the right choice,
you might get told (or come to realise) what the consequences of the
wrong one would have been; but if you make the wrong one you don't get
to know what the precise consequences of the right one would have been.

> 2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
> tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
> apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
> can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
> magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.
>
> I don't think these are nitpicks, but I could be mistaken Wink

Trying to use the rings in direct response to a request for assistance
from the King of Narnia is perhaps a little different from leaving them
lying around for anyone who wants to dabble in 'research' in the style
of Uncle Andrew. After all, the request would not even have been
received without the approval (in fact, intervention) of Aslan. OTOH,
the rings weren't actually needed, so maybe Digory was indeed in error
to suggest their use.

Best wishes,
Matthew

--
Those who assert that the mathematical sciences have nothing to say
about the good or the beautiful are mistaken. -- Aristotle

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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:25 pm
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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mike_in_the_west wrote:

> I recently skimmed thru MN (The Magician's Nephew). Maybe the group can
> clarify some questions about the magic rings used by Digory and Polly
> to cross into the Wood between the Worlds.
>
> (I'm trying to iron out what seem to be some important internal
> inconsistencies in the Narnia books.)
>
> 1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
> have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
> Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
> book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
> would have been."
>
> 2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
> tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
> apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
> can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
> magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.
>
> I don't think these are nitpicks, but I could be mistaken Wink

Digory believed that Narnia was in deep trouble, and the rings were the
only dependible way he could think of to get help to Narnia.
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mike_in_the_west

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Since: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 13



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:43 pm
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>I have to remind myself not to be so analytical

Yes. The stories are fairly short and intended for young children, and
don't stand up to too much analysis.

That said, three fantasy authors whom I have enjoyed (Tolkien, Lewis,
and Pullman) have said hard things about the others' work. (Actually,
Lewis and Tolkien are long dead, so Pullman has the last word.)

Anyway, I'm trying to work out, to my own satisfaction, how well the
Narna books work (for me) as fantasy. One of the basic rules is to
maintain a certain internal consistency about the _important_ things.
Note that this has nothing to do with me guessing the author's
_intentions_, other than accepting that the story fits within a certain
broad genre.

My current thinking is that LB would have been better without the magic
rings.

(Of course, I might be wrong Wink
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Hi Ho Silver

External


Since: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 5



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:53 am
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Whenever I get to wondering about such things, I have to remind myself not
to be so analytical and just enjoy t he story and let it speak to me....

"mike_in_the_west" <mhcole.TakeThisOut@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1140926485.075832.310840@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>I recently skimmed thru MN (The Magician's Nephew). Maybe the group can
> clarify some questions about the magic rings used by Digory and Polly
> to cross into the Wood between the Worlds.
>
> (I'm trying to iron out what seem to be some important internal
> inconsistencies in the Narnia books.)
>
> 1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
> have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
> Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
> book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
> would have been."
>
> 2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
> tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
> apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
> can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
> magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.
>
> I don't think these are nitpicks, but I could be mistaken Wink
>
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tsbrueni

External


Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:14 am
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis, others (more info?)

"mike_in_the_west" <mhcole DeleteThis @mac.com> wrote in message
news:1140926485.075832.310840@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>I recently skimmed thru MN (The Magician's Nephew). Maybe the group can
> clarify some questions about the magic rings used by Digory and Polly
> to cross into the Wood between the Worlds.
>
> (I'm trying to iron out what seem to be some important internal
> inconsistencies in the Narnia books.)
>
> 1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
> have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
> Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
> book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
> would have been."
>
> 2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
> tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
> apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
> can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
> magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.
>
> I don't think these are nitpicks, but I could be mistaken Wink

And then Peter got smashed up in a train accident while carrying the
rings. What happened to the rings? Did they survive the accident? If
so, did anyone accidently touch them and get transported to the Wood
Between the Worlds. If they got smashed, did they release any magic
dust into the air?
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SS13

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Since: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 35



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>I _think_ the effective rule here is that if you make the right choice,
>you might get told (or come to realise) what the consequences of the
>wrong one would have been; but if you make the wrong one you don't get
>to know what the precise consequences of the right one would have been.
Exact, so you can try again other time.

>My current thinking is that LB would have been better without the magic
>rings.
And without Characters' death, too. And let's not speak of Susan...
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mike_in_the_west

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Since: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 13



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>What happened to the rings?

Once upon a time, Sauron was walking along some abandoned railroad
tracks...
"Oooooooh, shiny!"
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mike_in_the_west

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Since: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 13



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>Cute, but backwards

Hmmm - I agree your version makes more sense...
,

I bet Jadis could have bested Sauron. After all, she was a "dem fine
woman", while Sauron was just a lapsed Maia.

On a more serious note, I think Lewis did a god job describing the
descent and fall of Charn, Much more entertaining (to my mind) than
Tolkien's description of the fall of Numenor and the creation of the
Nazgul.
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GSV Three Minds in a Can

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Since: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:29 am
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Bitstring <1141438941.713215.31060.TakeThisOut@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, from
the wonderful person mike_in_the_west <mhcole.TakeThisOut@mac.com> said
>>What happened to the rings?
>
>Once upon a time, Sauron was walking along some abandoned railroad
>tracks...
>"Oooooooh, shiny!"

Cute, but backwards. You see there was this lump of polluted basalt,
spat out by this volcano, and one day a professor ....

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.
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mike_in_the_west

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Since: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 13



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:13 pm
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>you need to wade through copious notes and cryptic scribblings to get it
> all (well, you probably had to be JRRT to get it ALL).

I will plead the "Arwen defense":
"Not until I have read the 12 volume 'History of Middle-Earth' will I
understand the tale of the Numenoreans and their fall. As wicked fools
I have scorned them."

Lewis makes use of "throwaway" lines (like the titles of the books in
Tumnus' dwelling). But with Tolkien, every little scrap has a huge
backstory. Tolkien was probably not overjoyed when Lewis offhandedly
mentioned "Numinor" (sic) in his Space Trilogy.
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GSV Three Minds in a Can

External


Since: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:07 pm
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Bitstring <1141486639.791867.3170 RemoveThis @z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, from
the wonderful person mike_in_the_west <mhcole RemoveThis @mac.com> said
>>Cute, but backwards
>
>Hmmm - I agree your version makes more sense...
>,
>
>I bet Jadis could have bested Sauron. After all, she was a "dem fine
>woman", while Sauron was just a lapsed Maia.
>
>On a more serious note, I think Lewis did a god job describing the
>descent and fall of Charn, Much more entertaining (to my mind) than
>Tolkien's description of the fall of Numenor and the creation of the
>Nazgul.

The fall of Charn was really just a sketch - there's loads more details
about the Fall of Numenor (et al), though you need to wade through
copious notes and cryptic scribblings to get it all (well, you probably
had to be JRRT to get it ALL).

I didn't really enjoy watching either set of screwups, so I guess the
sketch was best. It's way too easy to sit and say 'hey guys if you keep
doing that you are going to get into some serious trouble .. ' (or 'When
sailing uninvited to Valinor, please remember to take a lifebelt')

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.
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Bree

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Since: Jun 25, 2005
Posts: 83



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:50 pm
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)

I thought they'd planned some sort of a 'shared universe' project. Tolkien
was going to write the past of it and Lewis the future.


Bree
--------


On 06 Mar 2006 20:20:52 GMT, "Dan Drake" <dd DeleteThis @dandrake.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 02:13:29 UTC, "mike_in_the_west" <mhcole DeleteThis @mac.com>
>wrote:
>
>>...
>> Lewis makes use of "throwaway" lines (like the titles of the books in
>> Tumnus' dwelling). But with Tolkien, every little scrap has a huge
>> backstory. Tolkien was probably not overjoyed when Lewis offhandedly
>> mentioned "Numinor" (sic) in his Space Trilogy.
>
>But very little of that backstory had been written at the time, or even
>sketched out, as I understand it.
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:15 am
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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mike_in_the_west wrote:

> I recently skimmed thru MN (The Magician's Nephew). Maybe the group can
> clarify some questions about the magic rings used by Digory and Polly
> to cross into the Wood between the Worlds.
>
> (I'm trying to iron out what seem to be some important internal
> inconsistencies in the Narnia books.)
>
> 1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
> have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
> Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
> book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
> would have been."
>
> 2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
> tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
> apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
> can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
> magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.

The Friends of Narnia had just recieved an urgent SOS from the King of
Narnia, and the Rings were the only way Digory knew to get to Narnia
without Aslan's help.
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: magic rings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis, others (more info?)

"mike_in_the_west" <mhcole.DeleteThis@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1140926485.075832.310840@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>I recently skimmed thru MN (The Magician's Nephew). Maybe the group can
> clarify some questions about the magic rings used by Digory and Polly
> to cross into the Wood between the Worlds.
>
> (I'm trying to iron out what seem to be some important internal
> inconsistencies in the Narnia books.)
>
> 1) After Digory retrieves a magic apple for Aslan, he asks what would
> have happened if he ate one himself (against Aslan's explicit orders).
> Aslan proceeds to tell him "what would have been." But elsewhere in the
> book series, Lewis makes a big deal about Aslan never telling "what
> would have been."
>
> 2) Digory sees the potential horrific effects of magic after Aslan
> tells him that the Witch Jadis will get long life from eating the magic
> apple. Aslan later tells Digory to bury the magic rings so that nobody
> can use them again. Flashforward to LB - Digory suggests using the
> magic rings to tranport Eustace and Jill to Narnia.
>
> I don't think these are nitpicks, but I could be mistaken Wink

And then Peter got smashed up in a train accident while carrying the
rings. What happened to the rings? Did they survive the accident? If
so, did anyone accidently touch them and get transported to the Wood
Between the Worlds. If they got smashed, did they release any magic
dust into the air?
 >> Stay informed about: magic rings 
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