Tolkien newsgroups history

Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb DeleteThis @dbtech.net> wrote:
> A general question for everybody: Um, I'm new here and don't know too
> much about it all, but feel I should ask first if it's considered a
> capital crime to post a link to a M. Martinez article about this?

I can't see why.

Even at the heat of battle most of his adversaries would acknowledge him as
a very knowledgeable Tolkien scholar. Of course it might attract the
attention of the man himself, which - going from past experience -
invariably leads to some level of flamewar. Personally I'd accept that
risk.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Nothing is so smiple that it can't get messed up.
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Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> in article
<Afwgc.2138$5P5.20844561@news-text.cableinet.net>:
> Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb RemoveThis @dbtech.net> wrote:
> > A general question for everybody: Um, I'm new here and don't know too
> > much about it all, but feel I should ask first if it's considered a
> > capital crime to post a link to a M. Martinez article about this?

> Not in my book.

Nor in mine. Michael probably knows as much about Middle-earth as
anyone does, even if he and I (and others) have disagreed rather
firmly on various readings of the source material. In other words,
I always appreciate seeing his take on things, but I wouldn't trust
his conclusions (or anyone's, to varying degrees) without looking into
the issue myself.

I guess the short translation of that is "Yes, I'd be interested to
see the link."

> Depending on which of the old-timers are around... you do risk
> provoking discussion about Martinez rather than the article...

I wouldn't be too worried about that these days. I don't think that
anyone here is still so sensitized to Michael's name that they'll
start attacking him the moment it's mentioned. (I hope not, anyway.)
In general, the most angry and devastating flame wars back in the day
involved actual disagreements about Tolkien: the hecklers and
name-callers were just a secondary annoyance to both sides.

> Personally, I'd prefer that discussion of the history of this
> newsgroup centred on some of the positive aspects. Has anyone done
> anything like a 'history' and picked out major discussions, changing
> composition of the posters, change in the volume of posts and topics
> discussed? Could be interesting.

I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably one
of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to neutral as
active posters came during the flame wars, not that that's saying too
much), and I don't have even remotely enough time (nor, probably,
enough interest to make it through the whole project). Perhaps
someone who _wasn't_ here for the flame wars could go back and read
through the archives and compile something... but that would
practically be a thesis project (in what field, I don't know).

Steuard Jensen
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sbjensen RemoveThis @midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:<IjGgc.14$25.2690@news.uchicago.edu>...

> I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably one
> of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to neutral as
> active posters came during the flame wars, not that that's saying too
> much),

Well... what about me? I distinctly recall being neutral... two...
maybe even three times.

> Perhaps someone who _wasn't_ here for the flame wars could go back and
> read through the archives and compile something... but that would
> practically be a thesis project (in what field, I don't know).

Aberrant psychology.


Seriously though... yeah, that would be absolutely fascinating stuff
to read. And incredibly dreary to compile.
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"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1178b6d1.0404190325.e6a01d1@posting.google.com...
> sbjensen RemoveThis @midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message
news:<IjGgc.14$25.2690@news.uchicago.edu>...
>
> > I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably one
> > of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to neutral as
> > active posters came during the flame wars, not that that's saying too
> > much),
>
> Well... what about me? I distinctly recall being neutral... two...
> maybe even three times.

I don't remember that comrade!

> > Perhaps someone who _wasn't_ here for the flame wars could go back and
> > read through the archives and compile something... but that would
> > practically be a thesis project (in what field, I don't know).
>
> Aberrant psychology.

LOL!

> Seriously though... yeah, that would be absolutely fascinating stuff
> to read. And incredibly dreary to compile.

One day there will be global academic conferences about AFT, I swear.

Arky
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On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:54:48 GMT, sbjensen.RemoveThis@midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:

>Quoth "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> in article
><Afwgc.2138$5P5.20844561@news-text.cableinet.net>:
>> Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.RemoveThis@dbtech.net> wrote:
>> > A general question for everybody: Um, I'm new here and don't know too
>> > much about it all, but feel I should ask first if it's considered a
>> > capital crime to post a link to a M. Martinez article about this?
>
>> Not in my book.
>
>Nor in mine. Michael probably knows as much about Middle-earth as
>anyone does, even if he and I (and others) have disagreed rather
>firmly on various readings of the source material. In other words,
>I always appreciate seeing his take on things, but I wouldn't trust
>his conclusions (or anyone's, to varying degrees) without looking into
>the issue myself.
>
>I guess the short translation of that is "Yes, I'd be interested to
>see the link."

And the short answer is "Right! There it is, in the original thread."
Thanks, Steuard and others.

Barb
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Arkady wrote:

> "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:1178b6d1.0404190325.e6a01d1@posting.google.com...
>
>>sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message
<snip>
>
> > Seriously though... yeah, that would be absolutely fascinating stuff
>
>>to read. And incredibly dreary to compile.
>
>
> One day there will be global academic conferences about AFT, I swear.

Why not? We already have the CIA, the White House, 10 Downing Street,
MI5, al Qaeda, Peter Jackson, the Bilderburgers, John Kerry, the Gardaí,
the Neocon fascists and the UN hanging on our every word.
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Een Wilde Ier <theusual.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:

> Why not? We already have the CIA, the White House, 10 Downing Street,
> MI5, al Qaeda, Peter Jackson, the Bilderburgers, John Kerry, the Gardaí,
> the Neocon fascists and the UN hanging on our every word.

All just retail outlets of the sinister Illuminati.


-- FotW

"If you must read newspapers and magazines at least
give yourself a mouthwash with The Lord of the Rings."

-- C.S. Lewis
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Steuard Jensen <sbjensen DeleteThis @midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

> I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably one
> of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to neutral as
> active posters came during the flame wars

Maybe just a brief history lesson on the flame wars?
Or even just _when_ they took place?
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien newsgroups history 

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen.RemoveThis@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably
>> one of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to
>> neutral as active posters came during the flame wars
>
> Maybe just a brief history lesson on the flame wars?
> Or even just _when_ they took place?

If memory serves me (it was one of the few periods in the history of the
newsgroup when I was out of touch) the first one started in the autumn of
1996 and continued for several month. The primary issue was (at the
beginning) whether or not balrogs had wing, if they could fly, if the
balrogs of the Silmarillion where in essense the same creatures of LoTR
etc. (And of course the colour of their furry slippers.) The antagonism
developed during these "discusssions" was so great that several of the
participants afterwards were unable to engage in any kind of discussion
with the other part without this too developing into a new flamewar. This
sad state remained for some time, until Michael Martinez (the major player
on one side of the flamewars) decided to devote his time in stead to his
web site.

Michael Martinez still pops into this newsgroup occasionally, but since
some people are still quite sore and willing to take offense at the
slightest opportunity, this invariably develops into a new flamewar until
MM decides to withdraw one again. Sometimes this happens in a matter of
days, sometimes we have the advantages of MMs vast knowledge for several
weeks before things go wrong.

There. That was as neutral as I could make, not putting the blame on any
one person or group of persons. If someone is offended by this, I
apologize. That was never my intension.

(And that I even wrote that disclaimer, will tell you something about just
how sore this subject is.)

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
"Let's have no fighting, please. This is, after all, a council of war."
-- Terry Pratchett
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> Belba Grubb from Stock <barbb.RemoveThis@dbtech.net> wrote:
> > A general question for everybody: Um, I'm new here and don't know too
> > much about it all, but feel I should ask first if it's considered a
> > capital crime to post a link to a M. Martinez article about this?
>
> Not in my book.

<snip>

Nor im mine. A misdemeanor, perhaps...

LOL!

Seriously, post away. Michael's comments were always thought-provoking or
challenging and sometimes both.

<rummages in drawer for Nomex underwear...>

M.
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Een Wilde Ier wrote:
>
> Arkady wrote:
>
> > "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson.RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:1178b6d1.0404190325.e6a01d1@posting.google.com...
> >
> >>sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message
> <snip>
> >
> > > Seriously though... yeah, that would be absolutely fascinating stuff
> >
> >>to read. And incredibly dreary to compile.
> >
> >
> > One day there will be global academic conferences about AFT, I swear.
>
> Why not? We already have the CIA, the White House, 10 Downing Street,
> MI5, al Qaeda, Peter Jackson, the Bilderburgers, John Kerry, the Gardaí,
> the Neocon fascists and the UN hanging on our every word.

The Gardaí ?

Did you mean the Gardaí?

The fada is Ctrl + Alt + the vowel - for future reference.



Helpful Mike.
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
>
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen DeleteThis @midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably one
> > of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to neutral as
> > active posters came during the flame wars
>
> Maybe just a brief history lesson on the flame wars?
> Or even just _when_ they took place?

They still occur, from time to time... I'm told...

M.
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien newsgroups history 

Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
>
> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> > Steuard Jensen <sbjensen RemoveThis @midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> I would love to see something like that. Trouble is, I'm probably
> >> one of the only people I'd trust to write it (I was as close to
> >> neutral as active posters came during the flame wars
> >
> > Maybe just a brief history lesson on the flame wars?
> > Or even just _when_ they took place?
>
> If memory serves me (it was one of the few periods in the history of the
> newsgroup when I was out of touch) the first one started in the autumn of
> 1996 and continued for several month. The primary issue was (at the
> beginning) whether or not balrogs had wing, if they could fly, if the
> balrogs of the Silmarillion where in essense the same creatures of LoTR
> etc. (And of course the colour of their furry slippers.) The antagonism
> developed during these "discusssions" was so great that several of the
> participants afterwards were unable to engage in any kind of discussion
> with the other part without this too developing into a new flamewar. This
> sad state remained for some time, until Michael Martinez (the major player
> on one side of the flamewars) decided to devote his time in stead to his
> web site.
>
> Michael Martinez still pops into this newsgroup occasionally, but since
> some people are still quite sore and willing to take offense at the
> slightest opportunity, this invariably develops into a new flamewar until
> MM decides to withdraw one again. Sometimes this happens in a matter of
> days, sometimes we have the advantages of MMs vast knowledge for several
> weeks before things go wrong.
>
> There. That was as neutral as I could make, not putting the blame on any
> one person or group of persons. If someone is offended by this, I
> apologize. That was never my intension.
>
> (And that I even wrote that disclaimer, will tell you something about just
> how sore this subject is.)

I! THINK! THAT! WAS! A! BLATANT! FLAME! FROM! YOU! JENSEN!

M!
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