The palaver at Morannon

Kunochan wrote:

> "Negotiating" with Sauron's minion would terrify the men
> (who, by the way, certainly don't know they're a "diversion."

That's an interesting point ... so you think the young men of Rohan,
from Westfold far away and the husbandmen from Lossarnach (for whom
Mordor had from childhood been a name of evil) didn't know why they were
marching towards that dread land?

Well I don't suppose they were given the minutes of the Last Debate,
but I wonder how much were they were told:

"Well boys, we've just barely won a great battle but now we have to walk
open-eyed into a trap that may well prove that we shall perish utterly
in a black battle far from the living lands. Now I'm calling for hardy
men who'll go willingly, knowing your peril. All volunteers take a pace
forward."

SQ
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On Oct 21, 4:20 am, Sean_Q_ wrote:
> Kunochan wrote:
> > "Negotiating" with Sauron's minion would terrify the men
> > (who, by the way, certainly don't know they're a "diversion."
>
> That's an interesting point ... so you think the young men of Rohan,
> from Westfold far away and the husbandmen from Lossarnach (for whom
> Mordor had from childhood been a name of evil) didn't know why they were
> marching towards that dread land?
>
> Well I don't suppose they were given the minutes of the Last Debate,
> but I wonder how much were they were told:
>
> "Well boys, we've just barely won a great battle but now we have to walk
> open-eyed into a trap that may well prove that we shall perish utterly
> in a black battle far from the living lands. Now I'm calling for hardy
> men who'll go willingly, knowing your peril. All volunteers take a pace
> forward."

"I said, all vounteers take a pace forward! All right, we'll take it
that you've all volunteered"
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In message

Kunochan spoke these staves:
>
In message
Sean_Q_ spoke these staves:
>>
>> Saruon thinks Aragorn has the One. But first he has a mind to play
>> the mice cruelly before he strikes to kill. So he sends out a
>> messenger with a list of demands. How was either of these supposed
>> to get him the Ring back?

I don't think the intention was to get the One Ring back through
negotiation. The book explicitly states that 'Sauron had already laid
his plans, and he had a mind first to play these mice cruelly before
he struck to kill.' This appears to have been Sauron's intention --
to humiliate these people a bit before killing them. Possibly, had
they chosen to negotiate, he might have considered the possibility
that they didn't have the One Ring, and thus have done some quick
thinking before the West was ready for it, but that is mere
speculation.

>> Meanwhile, Gandalf's strategy is to distract Sauron as long as
>> possible. Therefore why not "accept" the terms, or to ask some
>> time to consider them, or haggle for a while -- anything to
>> prolong the charade.

I agree that the main purpose of the forces of the West was to keep
Sauron's attention as long as possible, and the way they did this was
by letting Sauron believe that they (Aragorn, actually) had the
Master Ring and was using it (though I don't think that Sauron was,
or could have been, deceived into believing that Aragorn had
_mastered_ the One Ring, nor that the captains had any hope of this).

The trick is that the key is to keep Sauron believing that he will
eventually recapture his lost Ring from the battlefield before the
Morannon. The moment he doubts this, he will turn his thoughts to the
matter of where else the Ring might be, and they don't want that; if
he does so, there is a small chance that he might guess the truth in
time to prevent his own fall.

That is at least the best explanation I can come up with -- they had
to continue with the arrogance they had started and not show any hint
of weakness lest Sauron simply send his armies out and concentrate on
finding the One Ring elsewhere.

>> Seems to me this might have bought Frodo a bit more time, which
>> was the whole point of the expedition.

Precisely.

>> Suppose Gandalf does finally accept. The rabble of Gondor and its
>> host of deluded allies haul down their colors and withdraws
>> towards the Anduin.

Would a new Ring-lord show weakness in this way? Could Sauron be
deceived to believe that the new Ring-lord was willing to retreat?

Of course they wouldn't have got far in any case, since the trap was
set and there was no way that Sauron would have let them go, even if
they had surrendered, they would have been slaughtered.

Another concern is of course Sauron's impatience. I don't think the
captains and ambassadors were fooled for a single moment as to
whether they could avoid a battle that day, so they would also be
concerned about getting back with the host before the battle started;
Sauron would only play the bargaining game for as long as it amused
him, and they knew that once he lost patience with it, the battle
would start whether negotiations were on-going or not.

>> Elessar leads them, (seemingly) taking the Ring with him. That
>> would really get the DL's attention!
>
> I think the reason Gandalf and Aragorn can't waste time on The
> Mouth of Sauron is simple -- the armies of Gondor and Rohan are
> standing behind them. They can't look weak in front of the men,
> even if they're faking it.

I honestly don't think that that is their concern. Showing mercy and
pity is a long-established practice in Middle-earth, and the leaders
could have drawn out the negotiations almost indefinitely simply
telling their men that they were trying to avoid an unnecessary war.

And as Sean correctly points out the main objective was to keep
Sauron occupied, and if they could have achieved this through
negotiations rather than by battle, they would undoubtedly have done
so, whatever the appearance to the host.

> Aragron's will was the only thing keeping those warriors there.

You may be thinking of the New Line film version here, since this
does not, IMO, appear to be the case in the book. In the book the men
have followed their leaders -- the Rohirrim follows Éomer, the forces
from Dol Amroth and Minas Tirith follow Prince Imrahil and only the
forces from the southern fiefs along the Anduin came with Aragorn. It
is Imrahil and Éomer who follow Aragorn, not, IMO, their men.

> He even showed mercy on the cowards who turned back.

I am possibly overly sensitive, but I can't say if you're using the
word 'cowards' jokingly. If you are not, then I'd have to say that
you have misunderstood this passage completely.

> "Negotiating" with Sauron's minion would terrify the men

I don't think it would -- rather the opposite, IMO. If the host knew
that they were negotiating the terms of their own surrender, it might
be difficult to keep them in place, but that wouldn't be the case.

> (who, by the way, certainly don't know they're a "diversion."

I can't say that I've ever thought about it before, but I'd expect
that they were aware that they were a diversion, though they wouldn't
know the background for it. Perhaps you are right, though -- it's
possible that they were told it would be an easy victory before the
gates and then Sauron's might would be broken forever. At least that
belief (if they could be fooled to believe that) would help them
maintain the right attitude of arrogant self-confidence that should
mark the forces of a Ring-lord. On the other hand they can't all be
fools, and even if Pippin didn't talk, some would have guessed that
this host would be unable to assail the Black Land and vanquish the
Dark Lord.

So I'd say it's a toss-up whether they knew or not, but I definitely
don't think there's any 'certainly' about it either way.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you
haven't understood it yet.
- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> The trick is that the key is to keep Sauron believing that he will
> eventually recapture his lost Ring from the battlefield before the
> Morannon. The moment he doubts this, he will turn his thoughts to the
> matter of where else the Ring might be, and they don't want that; if
> he does so, there is a small chance that he might guess the truth in
> time to prevent his own fall.
>
> That is at least the best explanation I can come up with -- they had
> to continue with the arrogance they had started and not show any hint
> of weakness lest Sauron simply send his armies out and concentrate on
> finding the One Ring elsewhere.

All good points. Of course, Sauron had seen the Precious narrowly
slip away from his grasp several times before - in the Shire,
at Weathertop, Bruinen, etc. In his situation, I'd be worried about
*anything* that could go wrong, such as the Ring ending up lying
on the ground in the confusion of battle and suddenly Another Power
At Work arranging for some crebain to scoop it up in his beak for
beautifying its nest in the Misty Mountains to attract some cute
crebainchen -- oops, another 500 frustrating years searching
Middle Earth.

But if Gandalf perceives that Sauron is so certain of getting the gizmo
back that he can afford to indulge in a little cruelty, it only makes
sense to prolong the deception as long as possible instead of the blunt
refusal that he gave in the story. Why not whine and snivel for Sauron's
amusement as long as possible... or even fake a dispute amongst
themselves, with the laughter of Mordor as their only reward?

SQ
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> In message
>
> Kunochan spoke these staves:
>>
>> "Negotiating" with Sauron's minion would terrify the men
>
> I don't think it would -- rather the opposite, IMO. If the host knew
> that they were negotiating the terms of their own surrender, it might
> be difficult to keep them in place, but that wouldn't be the case.
>
>> (who, by the way, certainly don't know they're a "diversion."
>
> I can't say that I've ever thought about it before, but I'd expect
> that they were aware that they were a diversion, though they wouldn't
> know the background for it.

It seems like basic military strategy to not let the "men" know they're a
diversion. The staff officers know: they have to be given enough
information to carry the diversion through; but the rank and file can't be
told, because _every_ army has spies.
--
derek
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Derek Broughton wrote:

> _every_ army has spies.

I wonder how many spies the Americans managed to insert into the
Japanese armed forces in WW2. Not many it's safe to assume -- and even
if Yamamoto's sushi maker was an American agent how did he report?

OTOH in the Vietnam war, I suppose every second Vietnamese janitor
on American bases was an agent for Hanoi and so the VC/NVA often had
a wealth of intel.

Well Saruman had an agent in Rohan, but I'd like to hear more about
Sauron's spies in the Allied forces - how did he recruit or infiltrate
them? Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as small orcs, but I can't
imagine some orc impersonating a Rider from Westfold.

SQ
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On Oct 24, 9:16 am, Derek Broughton wrote:

> It seems like basic military strategy to not let the "men" know they're a
> diversion.  The staff officers know: they have to be given enough
> information to carry the diversion through; but the rank and file can't be
> told, because _every_ army has spies.

I doubt the Rohirrim *had* staff officers; their army was a feudal
levy. Gondor presumably did, after all the Romans did, but I see no
reason to think they had to be told. The trip was a diversion, but to
work it had to be carried out the way a serious offensive would. All
they really need to know is where the march started and where it ended
and the time schedule for the campaign.

But beyond that, I see two problems with thinking the men were told it
was a diversion. One, if any one of those men got captured and spilled
the beans, the consequences would be disastrous. They don't have to
know what the diversion is intended to cover; Sauron has quite a
conspiratorial mind and would probably guess something close enough to
the truth to be fatal to Frodo's chances. As it was he plainly hadn't
forgotten the events at Cirith Ungol.

But more important, what do they tell the men is the purpose of the
diversion? They can't even hint at the real reason, and offhand I
can't think of anything else that would be remotely plausible. There
aren't any other friendly or neutral kingdoms of Men that could
provide an army for an attack elsewhere, and no one in Gondor or Rohan
expects an army of Elves, Dwarves, Ents, or Eagles to descend on
Morder from another direction and win the war, nor would they believe
it if they were told it. Direct intervention by the Valar wouldn't
need a diversion, not that anyone would expect or believe that either.
A far as they're concerned they're it: the only hope of the West
against Sauron. They had to have some hope in the prospect of victory
through their own efforts, because they had little hope of victory by
other means.

I suspect that knowing that, and understanding the odds, probably had
a lot to do with the fear and despair that caused some to drop out or
turn back - not fear for their personal safety, fear for the
consequences of the battle for their people and their families.

Which is not to say they were lied to; given Tolkien's views on the
relationship between monarch and subject, I expect he thought it would
be enough for them just to be told to trust that their lords knew what
they were doing and that there was hope of victory if they remained
loyal and did their duty.

One question this has brought up for me: it's easy to understand how
Sauron could think Aragorn had the Ring and that he had won a power
struggle with Denethor and possibly others. But I don't see how he
could fail to know whether Aragorn was using it extensively - after
all, Sauron apparently perceived Frodo under some circumstances and to
some degree, and even came close to pinpointing him atop Amon Hen,
when he was just using it to turn invisible.

Sauron probably knew (through observation of his candidates'
transformation into the Nazgul) the effect the Ring would have on its
user, and may have suspected how difficult it would prove for anyone,
especially a Man, to master. This leads me to suspect that Sauron
thought Aragorn had the Ring but not only hadn't mastered it, wasn't
able to make much use of it yet at all. I think he would see the
attack on the Black Gate as the product of the folly and delusions of
grandeur the Ring provoked, not of its effective use.


- Bruce
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On Oct 24, 11:17 am, Derek Broughton wrote:
> Sean_Q_ wrote:
> > Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> >> _every_ army has spies.
>
> > I wonder how many spies the Americans managed to insert into the
> > Japanese armed forces in WW2. Not many it's safe to assume --

They didn't have to in order to be of considerable use. Probably the
most effective spy in either World War was Richard Sorge, who posed as
a German journalist, infiltrated the German Embassy in Tokyo, and
relayed to Stalin the supremely vital news that the Japanese were
planning on striking east and south and not attacking the Soviet Union
- thus freeing up the Siberian troops who saved Moscow, and possibly
the Soviet regime itself, in 1941.

> Race differences merely make it harder, and I can't immediately find any
> evidence that there were any, but you'll never convince me it didn't
> happen.  If nothing else, Japanese occupiers used local labor.

That was one main source. There were many spies in the Philippines and
the Solomon Islands, and I believe some in Malaya and the Dutch East
Indies as well. Also friendly locals who weren't actively spying could
supply lots of useful info. There were also Europeans who remained
behind in hiding; civilian coastwatchers in the Solomons (who gave
vital intel on air and ship movements) and some U.S. soldiers in the
Philippines (mostly on Mindanao) who went guerrilla in the hills and
jungles rather than surrendering.

> > Well Saruman had an agent in Rohan, but I'd like to hear more about
> > Sauron's spies in the Allied forces - how did he recruit or infiltrate
> > them?

That's easy enough; you use a fellow who can pass himself off as
working for someone else to trick a soldier into giving information or
otherwise compromising himself, and then blackmail him into becoming a
full-fledged spy. The Soviets had a lot of success with this method,
getting sympathetic folks to pass info to people they thought were
Israelis, South Africans, or whoever else the victim might be more
disposed to spy for.

Granted, the general tendency toward mercy on the part of Aragorn and
the rest of Free People's leadership would make this a bit more
difficult - the victim will be a lot more likely to risk coming clean
before committing any serious breach if he knows he isn't going to be
disemboweled and/or roasted alive and his family enslaved for even a
minor betrayal.

> >Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as small orcs, but I can't
> > imagine some orc impersonating a Rider from Westfold.
>
> Why would he need Orcs?  We already know he has Men.  He also has the
> ability to off nearly unlimited power and money.  We also know that Men are
> corruptible.

Yup.

Also, given the emptiness of the country it would be surprising if
there wern't scouts of Sauron's tracking the army and snatching the
occasional prisoner.


- Bruce
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Sean_Q_ wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>> _every_ army has spies.
>
> I wonder how many spies the Americans managed to insert into the
> Japanese armed forces in WW2. Not many it's safe to assume --

Race differences merely make it harder, and I can't immediately find any
evidence that there were any, but you'll never convince me it didn't
happen. If nothing else, Japanese occupiers used local labor.

> and even
> if Yamamoto's sushi maker was an American agent how did he report?

The same way spies do everywhere?

> Well Saruman had an agent in Rohan, but I'd like to hear more about
> Sauron's spies in the Allied forces - how did he recruit or infiltrate
> them? Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as small orcs, but I can't
> imagine some orc impersonating a Rider from Westfold.

Why would he need Orcs? We already know he has Men. He also has the
ability to off nearly unlimited power and money. We also know that Men are
corruptible.
--
derek
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Bruce Tucker wrote:

> On Oct 24, 9:16 am, Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>> It seems like basic military strategy to not let the "men" know they're a
>> diversion.  The staff officers know: they have to be given enough
>> information to carry the diversion through; but the rank and file can't
>> be told, because _every_ army has spies.
>
> I doubt the Rohirrim *had* staff officers;

So they called them counts & dukes... Any army has leaders - staff
officers - or it's a rabble.
--
derek
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Bruce Tucker wrote:

> Also, given the emptiness of the country it would be surprising if
> there wern't scouts of Sauron's tracking the army and snatching the
> occasional prisoner.

Mmmm - talk first, _then_ dinner
--
derek
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"Sean_Q_" skrev i meddelandet


[snip]

> I wonder how many spies the Americans managed to insert into the
> Japanese armed forces in WW2. Not many it's safe to assume -- and even
> if Yamamoto's sushi maker was an American agent how did he report?
>
> OTOH in the Vietnam war, I suppose every second Vietnamese janitor
> on American bases was an agent for Hanoi and so the VC/NVA often had
> a wealth of intel.
>
> Well Saruman had an agent in Rohan, but I'd like to hear more about
> Sauron's spies in the Allied forces - how did he recruit or infiltrate
> them? Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as small orcs, but I can't
> imagine some orc impersonating a Rider from Westfold.

Ah - your post summons forth another interesting possibility. What if
Gandalf recruited Stoors from the Gladden Fields who infiltrated Mordor,
disguised as little orcs?
Perhaps the little tracker orc who shot the big orc when they came too
close to Frodo and Sam was actually a Stoor who could smell them perfectly
well and decided to save them by picking a quarrel with the big warrior orc
and shooting him. And as a good secret agent would, he did not then announce
himself to Frodo and Sam; he just ran off to resume his normal assignment as
a secret agent of the West.
Why didn't they praise HIM at the Field of the Cormallen? Perhaps he was
still needed for new missions further east? And did he belong to the
Paddifoot family? Or the Sherlock-Bagginses?

Öjevind
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"Bruce Tucker" skrev i meddelandet


[snip]

> I doubt the Rohirrim *had* staff officers; their army was a feudal
levy. Gondor presumably did, after all the Romans did, but I see no
reason to think they had to be told. The trip was a diversion, but to
work it had to be carried out the way a serious offensive would. All
they really need to know is where the march started and where it ended
and the time schedule for the campaign.

Furthermroe, the whole campaign was conducted just the way it would have
been if it had been an earnest attempt to vanquish the hosts of Mordor.

Öjevind
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