palintir

"HintonMark" <hintonmark RemoveThis @aol.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:20050207140553.12595.00000382@mb-m24.aol.com...
 > transends the space time restrictions
 >
 > the seeing stones came before time and expands all space,
 >
 > see related contexts in the waters of galadriel


A somewhat cryptic remark. I believe however, that the Palantíri were made
by Fëanor
"...wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes
of the eagles of Manwë."

As for the waters of Galadriel, she _did_ bear the ring of water, which was
made by Celembribor.

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"Peter Andersen" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >I believe however, that the Palantíri were made
 >by Fëanor
 >"...wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes
 >of the eagles of Manwë."

He made some Palantiri (or work-alikes), but not necessarily the
ones that were in Middle-earth in the Third Age.

The gems Feanor made were in his treasury at Formenos and were all
taken by Morgoth. Morgoth fed all of them to Ungoliant except the
three Silmarils. If by some chance Feanor's "seeing stones"
escaped, it seems unlikely he took them to Middle-earth -- if he
had, then in all the long wars we would have read about his or his
sons' use of them.

The seeing stones that we read about in LotR were brought by Elves
from Tol Eressea to Numenor in the Second Age. It's possible they
had been made by Feanor, but I think the odds are against it.

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Stan Brown wrote:

 > The seeing stones that we read about in LotR were brought by Elves
 > from Tol Eressea to Numenor in the Second Age. It's possible they
 > had been made by Feanor, but I think the odds are against it.

Perhaps, during all the confusion at the Kinslaying, he misplaced them
at Alqualonde; the Teleri then later handing them out not caring to have
a reminder of Feanor laying about.
--
Bill

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On 07 Feb 2005 19:05:53 GMT,
HintonMark <hintonmark.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
 > transends the space time restrictions
 >
 > the seeing stones came before time and expands all space,
 >
 > see related contexts in the waters of galadriel

Here's a tip. Try reading the books.

--
Aaron Clausen
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  >>If by some chance Feanor's "seeing stones" escaped, it seems unlikely
he took them to Middle-earth -- if he had, then in all the long wars we
would have read about his or his sons' use of them.

And yet we have the hindmost of the host of the Noldor bearing with
them out of Tuna treasures that were "a burden and a solace on the
road".

It is not inconceivable that they had some palantiri with them I
suppose. Later, in MIddle-earth we have Maedhros and Fingon taking
common council before the Nirnaeth, which could have taken the form of
a "teleconference" ("pala-conference"?) using seeing stones, since one
of them was in Himring, the other in Hithlum, and they were separated
by lands occupoed by Morgoth's forces.

Similarly (in UT?) we learn of Nargothrond and Thingol exchange
messages by secret ways (although the secret ferries across the Sirion
seem more likely to be the method). Finrod was in the rear of the host
of Noldor in Araman, so his people could have been the ones who bore
the seeing stones with them out of Valinor. He had great friendship
with thingol, so could have gifted one to Doriath.

Just a few swpecualtive thoughts as I have my morning coffee.

Neil Anderson

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nanderson RemoveThis @transact.bm wrote:

 > Just a few swpecualtive thoughts as I have my morning coffee.

Could -The Prancing Pony- at Bree have been equipped with a Palantir
"hot spot". Viewing with Palantari might be referred to as P.V. The very
best Palantari carried pay P.V. rather than sponsored P.V.

The night time Palantir viewing in Gondor was mostly -The Sauron Show-.
Heeeere's Sauron!

Bob Kolker<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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nanderson.TakeThisOut@transact.bm wrote:
:>>If by some chance Feanor's "seeing stones" escaped, it seems unlikely
: he took them to Middle-earth -- if he had, then in all the long wars we
: would have read about his or his sons' use of them.

: And yet we have the hindmost of the host of the Noldor bearing with
: them out of Tuna treasures that were "a burden and a solace on the
: road".

However given the fact that every major stronghold of the Noldor
was wiped out as were most of the Noldor the probability that
any of those treasures made it back is pretty low. I suppose
you could assume that they recovered stuff from Angband, but
I do not know if there is even any evidence that treasure was
hoarded in Angband.

Stephen
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 >
 > Here's a tip. Try reading the books.


*sigh* how long is THAT gonna take? Can't we just boil it down to one
paragraph?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Leon Trollski <bill.gates.TakeThisOut@micrisoft.com> wrote:
  >> Here's a tip. Try reading the books.
 >
 > *sigh* how long is THAT gonna take? Can't we just boil it down to
 > one paragraph?

Hmm....

<ahem>

PARTY!! History lesson from wizard. Journey. Strange forest. Weird
dancing bloke. Evil ghost. Pub. Weird broken-sword bloke. Journey. More
evil ghosts. Fight. Flight. History lesson from Elf. Journey. Up
mountain. Down mountain. Under mountain. Evil demon. Fight. Lose wizard.
More forest. Strange Elf woman. Down river. Fight. Flight. Weird starved
bloke. Smelly marsh. Black Gate. Nice forest. Ghost city. Spider's lair.
Orc tower. Journey. Up another mountain. Fight. Ring destroyed.
(*)Flight. PARTY!! Journey. Call pest control. Sailing trip. THE END!
(**)

(*) Did I mention it was all about a ring?
(**) This account may be incomplete.

Christopher

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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

 > The gems Feanor made were in his treasury at Formenos

Unless he gifted some to others before he began hoarding.

 > The seeing stones that we read about in LotR were brought by Elves
 > from Tol Eressea to Numenor in the Second Age. It's possible they
 > had been made by Feanor, but I think the odds are against it.

Gandalf seems to think it is possible. And there is a possible route for
palantiri to go from Aman to ME and back in the First Age. I'll put that
in my reply to another post.

Christopher

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stephen RemoveThis @nomail.com <stephen RemoveThis @nomail.com> wrote:
 > nanderson RemoveThis @transact.bm wrote:
   >>>> If by some chance Feanor's "seeing stones" escaped, it seems
   >>>> unlikely
  >> he took them to Middle-earth -- if he had, then in all the long wars
  >> we would have read about his or his sons' use of them.

You have to remember that the palantiri were invented while LotR was
written. Tolkien seems only to have inserted one reference to them in
'The Silmarillion' (the original quote in this thread), and that was
after LotR had been written.

  >> And yet we have the hindmost of the host of the Noldor bearing with
  >> them out of Tuna treasures that were "a burden and a solace on the
  >> road".
 >
 > However given the fact that every major stronghold of the Noldor
 > was wiped out as were most of the Noldor the probability that
 > any of those treasures made it back is pretty low.

Why can't you have them carried out of Gondolin by the refugees, or
taken to the Havens by Gil-galad, and then that island where they went
after the Havens were sacked? Also, Celebrimbor survived, so he may have
snaffled a few palantiri.

Christopher

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Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
: stephen RemoveThis @nomail.com <stephen RemoveThis @nomail.com> wrote:
:> nanderson RemoveThis @transact.bm wrote:
:>>>> If by some chance Feanor's "seeing stones" escaped, it seems
:>>>> unlikely
:>> he took them to Middle-earth -- if he had, then in all the long wars
:>> we would have read about his or his sons' use of them.

: You have to remember that the palantiri were invented while LotR was
: written. Tolkien seems only to have inserted one reference to them in
: 'The Silmarillion' (the original quote in this thread), and that was
: after LotR had been written.

:>> And yet we have the hindmost of the host of the Noldor bearing with
:>> them out of Tuna treasures that were "a burden and a solace on the
:>> road".
:>
:> However given the fact that every major stronghold of the Noldor
:> was wiped out as were most of the Noldor the probability that
:> any of those treasures made it back is pretty low.

: Why can't you have them carried out of Gondolin by the refugees, or
: taken to the Havens by Gil-galad, and then that island where they went
: after the Havens were sacked? Also, Celebrimbor survived, so he may have
: snaffled a few palantiri.

Why would Gondolin have 7 palantiri? Why rescue the palantiri
when nothing else was apparently saved? Who knows? As you say,
there is no real mention of the palantiri in the First Age largely
because Tolkien had not invented them yet. It just seems
unlikely that much of anything that the Noldor took with them
on Exile made it back. Claiming that the palantiri were so important
that they would be saved is going to be awfully hard to reconcile
with the fact that they are practically never mentioned in the histories.

Stephen
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stephen RemoveThis @nomail.com wrote:
: I suppose
: you could assume that they recovered stuff from Angband, but
: I do not know if there is even any evidence that treasure was
: hoarded in Angband.

Now that I think about it, the fact that Turgon's sword ended
up in a Troll cave suggests that the treasures of the Noldor
were not recovered after the "War of Wrath".

Stephen
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