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Anybody remember flash crowds - I think it was his 'hole in space' book that flash crowds. Have a look at this story on the BBC Whoever reported this story also knew his Niven and made the link.
Oh, boy - where's jerryberry jansen? - -- Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me
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External
Since: Jul 25, 2003
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:11 pm
Post subject: post-doomsday computing
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven, others (more info?)
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I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer.
SPOILER FOLLOWS
Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation
back almost to feudalism.
It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing
facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare
parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is
struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with
neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and
analyse information in the future.
So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or
whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still
want to be able to start the machine and use it.
How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have
time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps?
And would it be better to verify and copy^W backup those old Lotus 1-2-3
diskettes?
What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some
time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years
(if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as
well forget all about it!)
Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and 1100 amp
hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about 50km from the
coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably wouldn't be able to
fire up the home computer very often.
--
Bernie Dwyer
Dump the z to reply to me
***************************** |
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External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:11 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Bernie Dwyer" <berniez.DeleteThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au> wrote in message
news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au...
[SNIP]
> What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some
> time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years
> (if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as
> well forget all about it!)
Hmmm. I think that the requirements need to be assessed properly
first. What the hell do you want a computer for ?
The first application that comes to mind is archival.
The second is entertainment - music is kinda nice if you're having
a rough time for example.
Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low
power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used
in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you
are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole
different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly
over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused
for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10
years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R
media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well
I've got a couple of IBM UltraSCSI drives sitting in my server
machine that are dated 1996... And they've been in constant
use and so far (touch wood) haven't lost any bits... However,
I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives
seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark.
The kind of machine I'd like would have to be portable (well,
luggable at least), have a minimum of moving parts and support
at least some read-only media that can last for 30+ years. The
components must be rated for 30 years plus, with some kind of
manual bootstrap facility. Oh yeah, no NVRAM, no FLASH, no
EPROMs, if you need ROM fuse-arrays or something like would
be preferable. In terms of silicon processes you'd have to use
something fairly old-hat and skip on a lot of the fun stuff
like Copper. IBM, thankfully, have done a lot of good research
into chip failure modes, it would be worth looking at those
and getting your process tuned to it.
Oh yeah... The Power Supply... Keep it simple, something
like 12V DC (with an AC input option - depending on how your
power is delivered ...). Make damn sure that the power
supply is heavily protected. It should be able to take a
5kV input and live. 
The net cost of such a device would be astronomical in this
day and age. Maybe in the early 90s it would have been easier
to put such a beast together, there was less reliance on
flash memory for example, and the silicon processes were a
lot more conservative... Not to mention that the parts kicked
out a lot less heat. Could be worth looking at how they build
them satellite widgets that have a life in excess of 20 years.
Cheers,
Rupert |
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External
Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:11 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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In article <3EFFB868.B460B701 DeleteThis @caloundra.qld.gov.au>,
Bernie Dwyer <berniez DeleteThis @caloundra.qld.gov.au> writes:
>It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing
>facilities for a time when there would be little or no service
>or spare parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer
>when one is struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself +
>family (+ sharing with neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have
>the ability to organise and analyse information in the future.
>
>So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them),
>or whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but
>you still want to be able to start the machine and use it.
>
>How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you
>have time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps?
>
>And would it be better to verify and copy^W backup those old
>Lotus 1-2-3 diskettes?
>
>What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use
>for some time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year,
>2 years, 5 years (if you haven't got electric power after 5 years,
>I think you may as well forget all about it!)
Don't worry about IT preservation. Scavenge PCs, spare parts
and media after the Apocolyptic event. Other people will not
have electric power and will not value computers.
>Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and
>1100 amp hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about
>50km from the coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably
>wouldn't be able to fire up the home computer very often.
Your solar panels are equivalent to a private swimming pool
in a blighted urban area -- an attractive nuisance. Whether or
not your solar panels survive the Apocolyptic event, other
survivors will want to steal your facility from you. Loss of your
facility also means loss of your ability to grow food.
Should an Apocolypse occur, IMO you will be too busy protecting
your facility and your other family members to worry about
computers.
Skeptical? In the bad old days of the 1950's fallout shelter
fad, homeowners were instructed to maintain a good larder inside
their fallout shelter, and to have a strong lockable (from the
inside) door on their fallout shelter. Candles.
My opinions.
Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "Cults In Our Midst: ..."
by Margaret Thaler Singer >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:11 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven, others (more info?)
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"Rupert Pigott" <roo DeleteThis @dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong...
>
> Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low
> power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used
> in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you
> are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole
> different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly
> over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused
> for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10
> years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R
> media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well
> I've got a couple of IBM UltraSCSI drives sitting in my server
> machine that are dated 1996... And they've been in constant
> use and so far (touch wood) haven't lost any bits... However,
> I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives
> seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark.
Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or
Connor, etc) drives...
I have a pair of Seagate ST-251s that still hum along nicely,
although after sitting for several months without power, I
have to remove them, turn them upside down, and rotate the
spindle (which protrudes outside the case and through the
circuit board) with needle-nose pliers... good old stiction...
Also, last time I checked that (IBM-labeled) ST-506 MFM 5MB drive,
it also had not lost any data... ditto the 20MB Seagate in the
Zenith Z-151.
I have a 30MB Microscience drive that spins up, but I have
yet to get it properly interfaced again to see if it still
has my stuff...
A Western Digital 31200 (1.2GB 3.5" IDE), one of many, had
ceased spinning up... until this weekend, when I gave it a
good rap on its side whilst applying power... spun right up,
all data intact.
YMMV, etc...
--
-Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me 'Doug']
Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply
'The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away.' -Tom Waits >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:46 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bernie Dwyer (berniez@caloundra.qld.gov.au) writes:
> It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing
> facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare
> parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is
> struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with
> neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and
> analyse information in the future.
>
Some nonths back I read S.M. Stirling's trilogy about Nantucket Island
being sent back to the Bronze Age. The first book is titled "Island
in the Sea of Time".
To some extent, it reads like similar books where someone from the
present is somehow sent back in time, and tries to apply present day
knowledge and technology to that era. But those tend to be lone travellers,
without much from the present time. In this trilogy, they've got the
whole island, and all that was on it. So yes, they had computers,
and some generators to run them, along with plenty of things that weren't
practical but could be stripped for other things.
They did mothball most of the computers, because the power wasn't there
to run them and because they were likely to be something they couldn't
duplicate for a long time.
But one thing they did use a computer for was running CAD software
for shipbuilding. I thought that was intriguing, since it allowed
them to build far better ships using available supplies.
I think they used the computers to access encyclopedias, but of course
they had paper versions so this wasn't as necessary.
In a lot of these cataclysm stories, there usually is some group
that wants to steal the food in storage, or destroy some technology
because they see it as the cause of the situation. Every time I read
sucha book, I shudder at the waste. One may not need
a computer for the immediate, but it is something that won't be coming
back for an awful long time, and they, like books, need to be preserved
because there will be a time when such things will be needed. Maybe
not on a day to day basis, but once you've gotten used to such things
you need them to sustain some level of the old.
Michael >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:46 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 30 Jun 2003, Michael Black wrote:
> Some nonths back I read S.M. Stirling's trilogy about Nantucket Island
> being sent back to the Bronze Age. The first book is titled "Island
> in the Sea of Time".
>
> To some extent, it reads like similar books where someone from the
> present is somehow sent back in time, and tries to apply present day
> knowledge and technology to that era. But those tend to be lone travellers,
> without much from the present time. In this trilogy, they've got the
> whole island, and all that was on it. So yes, they had computers,
> and some generators to run them, along with plenty of things that weren't
> practical but could be stripped for other things.
>
> They did mothball most of the computers, because the power wasn't there
> to run them and because they were likely to be something they couldn't
> duplicate for a long time.
>
> But one thing they did use a computer for was running CAD software
> for shipbuilding. I thought that was intriguing, since it allowed
> them to build far better ships using available supplies.
>
IIRC, they also used the one at the observatory to generate navigational
tables appropriate to the years they found themselves in. They had
sextants and people who knew astronavigation, but a time shift of three
thousand years made most of their existing tables useless.
This kind of heavy number-crunching would be a good use for the machines
while they lasted. Wasn't one of Babbage's computing goals something to
do with the calculation of tide tables? Besides navigation, it might be
worth making up engineering and math tables in hard copy for any fields
that don't happen to be covered in local reference books. The first such
tables were done with slates and dip pens, of course, but it's a hell of a
lot easier with a computer, and a lasting benefit even if you have to make
future copies with the dip pen.
Conrad Hodson >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Bernie Dwyer" <berniez RemoveThis @caloundra.qld.gov.au> wrote in message
news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au...
> I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer.
>
> Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation
> back almost to feudalism.
>snipped<
lot of worrying about nothing...
for my whole life all i;ve heard is that
"the whole world is about to be destroyed" by some catastrophie
yet half the time, it never happens anyway...
maybe you could record data using clay tablets >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bernie Dwyer <berniez.DeleteThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au> wrote in message news:<3EFFB868.B460B701.DeleteThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au>...
> I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer.
>
<snip>
>
> It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing
> facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare
> parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is
> struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with
> neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and
> analyse information in the future.
>
> So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or
> whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still
> want to be able to start the machine and use it.
Whoa. Stop right there. If you're _serious_ about preserving your
ability to use computers,
-Don't use a typical intel PC. Get quality parts, rated for
reliability. Get spares. Get a lot of spares for the spares.
-Better still, learn UNIX. You're more likely to bump into legacy
systems (and what won't be a legacy system after the Fall?) that run a
UNIXy variant than Windows. Systems that should last longer will be
in sealed data centers and (IMHO) most of THOSE are "unix".
And if you DO scavenge a 'windows' machine, people who know UNIX can
learn Windows easier than the other way around.
-By a "UNIX" workstation. I've never seen an Intel PC last longer
than 5 years before turning into junk. OTOH, Sun machines 10 years
old and still running are not uncommon.
~er >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 32
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:07 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven, others (more info?)
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External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven, others (more info?)
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In article <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com>,
Douglas H. Quebbeman <DougQ.TakeThisOut@IgLou.com> wrote:
>"Rupert Pigott" <roo.TakeThisOut@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong...
>>
Previous posters mentioned 12V power for long-time use.
I would tend to approve. A 12V 100 Ah plain car battery
in parallell with the rest of the power supply does
wonders as a buffer capacitor and sacrificial anode.
>> Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low
>> power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used
>> in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you
>> are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole
>> different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly
>> over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused
>> for many years.
You can get electrolytic caps rated for 30+ years. But they
cost real money. They are a drag to change, but is worth it for
a real long-time operation.
> The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10
>> years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R
>> media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well
>> I've got a couple of IBM UltraSCSI drives sitting in my server
>> machine that are dated 1996... And they've been in constant
>> use and so far (touch wood) haven't lost any bits... However,
>> I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives
>> seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark.
>Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or
>Connor, etc) drives...
>
>I have a pair of Seagate ST-251s that still hum along nicely,
>although after sitting for several months without power, I
>have to remove them, turn them upside down, and rotate the
>spindle (which protrudes outside the case and through the
>circuit board) with needle-nose pliers... good old stiction...
Also, for real old hardware that is to be powered down
I would mount sacrificial anodes on the negative ground.
I have seen a lot of hardware degrade by simple corrosion.
>Also, last time I checked that (IBM-labeled) ST-506 MFM 5MB drive,
>it also had not lost any data... ditto the 20MB Seagate in the
>Zenith Z-151.
>
>I have a 30MB Microscience drive that spins up, but I have
>yet to get it properly interfaced again to see if it still
>has my stuff...
>
>A Western Digital 31200 (1.2GB 3.5" IDE), one of many, had
>ceased spinning up... until this weekend, when I gave it a
>good rap on its side whilst applying power... spun right up,
>all data intact.
I gave "lasarus" a spin the other day. Lasarus is a heap of
decrepit old hardware a friend and I used to take a look at
Linux in 1994. Lasarus was then truly risen from the dead.
The motherboard was a first-generation 80386; overclocked
for 3-4 years before we reclocked it back to 33 Mhz. Inventive
new CPU-cooler.
Micropolis drives, 2x110 Mb. It has been in storage for
4 years now; and the BIOS has lost the data. The power
is still good, only barely detectable ripples on the DC side.
I had to manually enter the BIOS settings, but they are written
on the case, so this is not a problem. Linux 1.0.9 a-out
came right up. I had to apply power a second time before the
stiction on the drives came loose though.
Total running time on lasarus is around 8 years out of
its physical age of 15 years.
I also have a server that has been up and running since 1996.
Seagate (not barracuda) SCSI drives, 486 of 1994 vintage.
Runs like a charm.
We don't have to throw out hardware just because it gets old!
Perhaps we should make a competition out of this; design the
longest-living server built of stock parts. I would gather
that most entries would be classified as "pure junk" by
the average peecee junkie of today.
Time will be the judge.
-- mrr >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 14
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Andrew McLaren <andrewmclaren.TakeThisOut@bigpond.n0-s-p-a-m.com> wrote:
> Jerry Pounelle?? I'm sorry, but Jerry Pournelle single-handedly did more
> to make Byte magazine a waste of paper than any other so-called
> "technology" writer. Jerry Pournelle never wrote a wise or interesting
> thing.
That wasn't the point. The point was that to get favorable postal rates
publications must have a certain percentage of "editorial content."
Which he provided. I'm sure they paid him at that level so that if he
had anything worth saying he said it somewhere else.
<Snip>
--
Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote
Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Walter >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:38 am
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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In article <1fxe6ld.ib92ywqsnnvnN%proto@panix.com>,
proto RemoveThis @panix.com (Walter Bushell) writes:
>Andrew McLaren <andrewmclaren RemoveThis @bigpond.n0-s-p-a-m.com> wrote:
>
>>Jerry Pounelle?? I'm sorry, but Jerry Pournelle single-handedly
>>did more to make Byte magazine a waste of paper than any other
>>so-called "technology" writer. Jerry Pournelle never wrote a
>>wise or interesting thing.
>
>That wasn't the point. The point was that to get favorable postal
>rates publications must have a certain percentage of "editorial
>content." Which he provided. I'm sure they paid him at that level
>so that if he had anything worth saying he said it somewhere else.
I remember Jerry Pournelle's "Byte" editorials concerning
life at Chaos Manor. Jerry was living the life many computer
nerds would like to lead (and never get the opportunity).
"Byte" magazine originated in Petersborough NH from the same
people who published Wayne Green's "73" amateur radio magazine.
Wayne Green editorialized and lived similarly to Jerry
Pournelle -- a 'super' amateur radio operator who toured the
globe providing amateur radio contacts from obscure locations
to other radio amateurs.
Part editorial, part social fantasy escapism for the high-tech
inclined. People want their heroes to set a shining example.
Skeptical? Think about Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt.
I got no problems
The door is open for exits
05:05:05
05:23:23
101810181018101810181018
Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "Cults In Our Midst: ..."
by Margaret Thaler Singer >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:41 am
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven, others (more info?)
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In article <v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj.RemoveThis@execpc.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:20 +1000, Bernie Dwyer
><berniez.RemoveThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au> wrote:
>>Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation
>>back almost to feudalism.
>>
>>It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing
>>facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare
>>parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is
>>struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with
>>neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and
>>analyse information in the future.
>
> Presuming you want to manage a technological rise efficiently, and
>avoid a quick collapse to true dark ages, I'd definitely want to keep
>electronic communications and recordkeeping alive.
>
>>So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or
>>whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still
>>want to be able to start the machine and use it.
>>
>>How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have
>>time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps?
>
> CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage
>times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there is
>no reason to worry about losing the data.
>
> Hard disks will die given time, but a warehouse full of them in
>sealed storage will give your small scale IT facility decades of
>operation. Maybe you can't restore technological production within
>that time frame, but you should be a lot closer to it than if you
>hadn't maintained working systems -- and people trained to learn from
>them and use them.
Decades is a short timeframe in such a respect. The world took around
two centuries to readjust after the fall of the roman empire. This will
take longer.
>
>>And would it be better to verify and copy^W backup those old Lotus 1-2-3
>>diskettes?
>>What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some
>>time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years
>>(if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as
>>well forget all about it!)
>>
>>Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and 1100 amp
>>hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about 50km from the
>>coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably wouldn't be able to
>>fire up the home computer very often.
1.6 kW of solar panels should give you enough to live on with a computer.
I manage to run one at 12-18 watts; but that is as low as I could get.
> While it didn't happen in Lucifer's Hammer, I think that in our
>current real world, satellite net would be used to link technological
>recovery centers, and share archives and information. By far, the
>power of computers for communication is their greatest advantage.
>Being able to use a post-doomsday internet for tech support would
>alleviate a lot of the problems.
Satellites requires an industrial society to support them. Use radio
instead.
> Electrical generators are buildable, hydro power workable in places,
>there are solutions.
I agree that electricity generation should be doable, but not in
large quantities.
> Of course, the book showed one really big downside: other people.
>Maintaining your own enclave on its own shouldn't be terribly hard.
>Defending it from those who'd steal it would be, and a conflict which
>destroys the nice stockpiles of material and experts needed to
>effectively use it would quickly make any solitary efforts at
>sustaining a small island of high tech a fatal attraction.
That was the experience of the librarians of Alexandria as well.
-- mrr >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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External
Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:02 am
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Michael Black" <et472.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bdppgh$9il$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
[SNIP]
> sucha book, I shudder at the waste. One may not need
> a computer for the immediate, but it is something that won't be coming
> back for an awful long time, and they, like books, need to be preserved
Come to think of it some components wouldn't necessarily
be that difficult to make if you've got wire... Valves
for instance, they might not last very long though ! At
a very hard push core might be doable too. 
Cheers,
Rupert >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:07 am
Post subject: Re: post-doomsday computing [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Jeffery S. Jones" <jeffsj.TakeThisOut@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:20 +1000, Bernie Dwyer
> <berniez.TakeThisOut@caloundra.qld.gov.au> wrote:
>
> >I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer.
> >
> >SPOILER FOLLOWS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation
> >back almost to feudalism.
> >
> >It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing
> >facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare
> >parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is
> >struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with
> >neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and
> >analyse information in the future.
>
> Presuming you want to manage a technological rise efficiently, and
> avoid a quick collapse to true dark ages, I'd definitely want to keep
> electronic communications and recordkeeping alive.
>
> >So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or
> >whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still
> >want to be able to start the machine and use it.
> >
> >How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have
> >time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps?
>
> CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage
> times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there is
> no reason to worry about losing the data.
Err, they are tested in practice.Audio-CDs for instance... Mine are
flaking out at around the 15 year mark due to use and poor
delamination. The majority of te CD-R and CD-RW media I've used is
rated at ~3 years max, and a number of people I know have commented
on bit loss happening on the ones they've recorded around 3 years
ago...
> Hard disks will die given time, but a warehouse full of them in
> sealed storage will give your small scale IT facility decades of
> operation. Maybe you can't restore technological production within
The capacitors and flash memories used in modern hardrives will most
likely fail before the decade mark (for Electrolytics much quicker).
Cheers,
Rupert >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing |
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