post-doomsday computing

"Darren J Longhorn" <darrenlonghorn.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones"
> <spicedham.RemoveThis@dualboot.net> wrote:
> >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best
> >you can get is an active system which continuously
> >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds
> >of the error detection / correction system to handle
> >them).
>
> It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines
> etched all the way through them with a laser?

Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean
that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the
Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to
destroy your information no matter how you try to save
it. You need something living to keep pumping in
negative entropy to keep your information around for an
indefinite period of time. Preferably something that
can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems /
organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you
can do is create storage systems designed for certain
non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best.
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

Gently extracted from the mind of George William Herbert;


>Darren J Longhorn <darrenlonghorn DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines
>>etched all the way through them with a laser?

>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from
>the laser...

>The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter
>if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be.

>So stone and most ceramics are out.

>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc,
>are good choices.

I'd avoid gold though. someone might melt down "how to make a blast furnace"
to make a bracelet for his girl friend

>Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been
>proposed as one method which would last a long time.

>But they presume microscopes to read them with.

Lens and use diagram on one side, and data on the other.


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

jmfbahciv DeleteThis @aol.com wrote:

>In article <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com>,
> proto DeleteThis @panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote:

[snip]

>>Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well.
>
>That only works for certain classes of information. I just finished
>reading a book on ancient technology and archaeologists have a
>difficult time trying to figure out how some stuff was made because
>the only record they had was a picture on a vase so the dimensional
>relationships of the parts are skewed convexly.

That would not have happened if they had gone flattablet.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

jmfbahciv.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <1057065091.313345.RemoveThis@saucer.planet.gong>,
> "Rupert Pigott" <roo.RemoveThis@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
> >
> > To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really
> > wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape.
>
> Be careful. My mice ate my fiche (if you're talking about mylar).
>
You are lucky. I don't have the time to fiche...
>
> > Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide
> > to play with it.
>
> And those ants that like to live in computers.
> Or is that a folklore?
>
Well this is <a.folklore.c.>...so folklore should be welcome.
IMHO if the computer is properly debugged, there should be
*no* ants in there.

If I have a small amount of datathat I really want to keep in
a readable format, I create a ROM out of a diode matrix.

Honest, I have an old TAB book on building your own microcomputer.
This book has several pages on how to create a boot ROM using
a matrix of diodes.

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

George William Herbert <gherbert RemoveThis @gw.retro.com> wrote:
<Snip>
> Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc,
> are good choices.
<Snip>

Scratch the ones that are valuable, they will be reused. A lot of Greek
Bronze statues only survive in marble copies because they were melted
down for the bronze.

Basicly scratch metals from the list, to valuable.

--
Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote
Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Walter
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

In article <bdvqof$puu$1@gw.retro.com>,
gherbert RemoveThis @gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote:
>Darren J Longhorn <darrenlonghorn RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines
>>etched all the way through them with a laser?
>
>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from
>the laser...
>
>The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter
>if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be.
>
>So stone and most ceramics are out.
>
>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc,
>are good choices.

Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down
and make jewelry.

>
>Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been
>proposed as one method which would last a long time.
>
>But they presume microscopes to read them with.

Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope.
Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

In article <be01pl$10rstu$1@ID-137880.news.dfncis.de>,
"Christopher M. Jones" <spicedham DeleteThis @dualboot.net> wrote:
>"Darren J Longhorn" <darrenlonghorn DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones"
>> <spicedham DeleteThis @dualboot.net> wrote:
>> >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best
>> >you can get is an active system which continuously
>> >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds
>> >of the error detection / correction system to handle
>> >them).
>>
>> It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines
>> etched all the way through them with a laser?
>
>Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean
>that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the
>Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to
>destroy your information no matter how you try to save
>it. You need something living to keep pumping in
>negative entropy to keep your information around for an
>indefinite period of time. Preferably something that
>can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems /
>organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you
>can do is create storage systems designed for certain
>non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best.
>
DNA.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

<jmfbahciv RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> In article <be01pl$10rstu$1@ID-137880.news.dfncis.de>,
> "Christopher M. Jones" <spicedham RemoveThis @dualboot.net> wrote:
> >Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean
> >that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the
> >Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to
> >destroy your information no matter how you try to save
> >it. You need something living to keep pumping in
> >negative entropy to keep your information around for an
> >indefinite period of time. Preferably something that
> >can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems /
> >organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you
> >can do is create storage systems designed for certain
> >non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best.
> >
> DNA.

I'd thought about that, and it's not really that bad an idea.
Encode your data (with extra error correction, just in case)
in the DNA of Deinococcus Radiodurans and let it loose into
the wild or keep a culture of it long term. The problem with
that though is that the ability to mutate itself is a selected
characteristic for organisms. Organisms which can mututate
have an advantage over those that don't, so even with D.
Radiodurans the ability to maintain DNA integrity in the face
of powerful mutagenic forces will usually only bring DNA
integrity up to the level of most organisms under normal
conditions, but won't necessarily make the DNA, over many
generations, more stable. Keeping the organisms in a culture
with unchanging conditions would certainly help that out a
lot, but wouldn't be a cure-all.


Nevertheless, if the data were properly encoded in a clever
enough fashion and if it had an extra level of error
correction (pre / post processing of the data, in other
words) it could very easily last millions or billions of
years.
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

In article <3F03DDA1.90CA4492 RemoveThis @ev1.net>,
Charles Richmond <richmond RemoveThis @ev1.net> writes:

>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>In article <1057065091.313345 RemoveThis @saucer.planet.gong>,
>>"Rupert Pigott" <roo RemoveThis @dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>>
>>>To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really
>>>wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape.
>>
>>Be careful. My mice ate my fiche (if you're talking about mylar).
>>
>You are lucky. I don't have the time to fiche...
>>
>>>Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide
>>>to play with it.
>>
>>And those ants that like to live in computers.
>>Or is that a folklore?
>>
>Well this is <a.folklore.c.>...so folklore should be welcome.
>IMHO if the computer is properly debugged, there should be
>*no* ants in there.
>
>If I have a small amount of datathat I really want to keep in
>a readable format, I create a ROM out of a diode matrix.
>
>Honest, I have an old TAB book on building your own microcomputer.
>This book has several pages on how to create a boot ROM using
>a matrix of diodes.
>
>--
>+----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------+

IMO nobody values perpetual data storage except the IRS.

A recent television news article reported that in case of
cataclysm, the IRS is prepared to rebuild their IT systems
within 30 days so that tax collection can recommence.

After all, if the United States infrastructure must be
reconstructed somebody must pay for the reconstruction.
Those debits won't just fly away unpaid.

Puts all the techie/nerd hogwash in perspective, doesn't it?

My opinions.

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "Cults In Our Midst: ..."
by Margaret Thaler Singer
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

rball84213.RemoveThis@aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote in message news:<20030701040042.17796.00001172.RemoveThis@mb-m15.aol.com>...
> In article <3F0101C5.5DA7A943.RemoveThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au>,
> Bernie Dwyer <berniez.RemoveThis@caloundra.qld.gov.au> writes:
>
> [RB comment: Bernie Dwyer wrote:]
> >>>Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and
> >>>1100 amp hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about
> >>>50km from the coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably
> >>>wouldn't be able to fire up the home computer very often.
> >>
> [RB comment: Richard Ballard wrote:]
> >>Your solar panels are equivalent to a private swimming pool
> >>in a blighted urban area -- an attractive nuisance. Whether or
> >>not your solar panels survive the Apocolyptic event, other
> >>survivors will want to steal your facility from you. Loss of your
> >>facility also means loss of your ability to grow food.
> >>
> >Well, most of my neighbours are on solar, too - and they're on larger
> >plots of land then me - I'm going to have a harder job than they are,
> >growing enough food. As we get on with each other pretty well, I'm
> >assuming that we would share resources and pool protection from
> >"foreigners". Why would my loss of electric power affect my ability to
> >*grow* food? I wouldn't be able to freeze it, or look at it after dark,
> >but what else is there? Did you mean that I would be turfed out of house
> >and home by a large, stronger force?
> >
> >>Should an Apocolypse occur, IMO you will be too busy protecting
> >>your facility and your other family members to worry about
> >>computers.
> >
> >Early on, yes, I'd agree. Assuming I + family + neighbours make it
> >through the first year, we can probably start thinking beyond immediate
> >survival. I should have mentioned I'm in a temperate (almost
> >sub-tropical) climate, on volcanic soil, and food isn't difficult to
> >grow around here.
>
> In a post-Apocolytic era you sound like an island of affluence
> amidst the squallor. Your neighbors and you might encounter
> roving bands of survivors looking to take a homestead(s).
> Electric lights are a beacon in a candle-powered society.
> And as your neighbors' solar panels begin to fail ...
>
> An out-of-print but interesting novel: "Valhalla" by Newton
> Thornburg (ISBN 0-316-84393-. I hope that your neighbors
> and you have a strong basis for long-term cooperation --
> civility degrades as non-replacable resources are expended and
> infrastructure begins to fail. (IMO the able repairman is the
> First Citizen in post-Apocolyptic society.)
>
> IMO many people will not function in post-Apocolyptic society's
> frugality -- no automobiles; no parties;

Depending on how much time actually is needed for subsistence activities.

> no tobacco; no liquor,
> wine or beer. With the exception of a corner retained for future
> replanting, vineyards are replanted as vegetable gardens and
> grain is eaten, not malted. *Everybody* is hungry and everybody
> works in the fields -- very few infants and no schooling.
>
What happens to the number of infants once the stocks of pills and condoms run out?

> >>Skeptical? In the bad old days of the 1950's fallout shelter
> >>fad, homeowners were instructed to maintain a good larder inside
> >>their fallout shelter, and to have a strong lockable (from the
> >>inside) door on their fallout shelter. Candles.
>
> My opinions.
>
> Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

"Christopher M. Jones" wrote:
>
> "Walter Bushell" <proto.TakeThisOut@panix.com> wrote:
> > Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well.
>
> Actually not. We see and take note of the clay tablets and chisled
> granite pieces which have managed to survive thousands of years. We
> don't see at all those which have been destroyed, and we don't take
> much note of those which have been damaged beyond all usefulness
> (precisely because they lack the information content which makes
> such objects so interesting). I note in particular that the famed
> Rosetta stone, which is of comparatively recent vintage next to the
> oldest of the old civilizations on Earth, is partially damaged.
>
> Of course, that points out the fact that the stone was just laying
> on/in the ground for several hundred years. And that in turn points
> out the fact that some sort of continual data stewardship will be
> necessary. Either through preventing damage to data, or through
> continual correction of the data, or both.

It also didn't help that it had been recycled into a wall stone at some
point....

Sam
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

"Christopher M. Jones" wrote:
>
> <jmfbahciv.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> > In article <be01pl$10rstu$1@ID-137880.news.dfncis.de>,
> > "Christopher M. Jones" <spicedham.DeleteThis@dualboot.net> wrote:
> > >Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean
> > >that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the
> > >Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to
> > >destroy your information no matter how you try to save
> > >it. You need something living to keep pumping in
> > >negative entropy to keep your information around for an
> > >indefinite period of time. Preferably something that
> > >can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems /
> > >organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you
> > >can do is create storage systems designed for certain
> > >non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best.
> > >
> > DNA.
>
> I'd thought about that, and it's not really that bad an idea.
> Encode your data (with extra error correction, just in case)
> in the DNA of Deinococcus Radiodurans and let it loose into
> the wild or keep a culture of it long term. The problem with
> that though is that the ability to mutate itself is a selected
> characteristic for organisms. Organisms which can mututate
> have an advantage over those that don't, so even with D.
> Radiodurans the ability to maintain DNA integrity in the face
> of powerful mutagenic forces will usually only bring DNA
> integrity up to the level of most organisms under normal
> conditions, but won't necessarily make the DNA, over many
> generations, more stable. Keeping the organisms in a culture
> with unchanging conditions would certainly help that out a
> lot, but wouldn't be a cure-all.
>
> Nevertheless, if the data were properly encoded in a clever
> enough fashion and if it had an extra level of error
> correction (pre / post processing of the data, in other
> words) it could very easily last millions or billions of
> years.

There was a science fiction story some years ago, where someone put
together a basic internet scanner to look for patterns that might
bespeak of alien communication; they felt that if there had been some
sort of alien communication, the evidence might be found somewhere in
the vast pile of knowledge that was the internet.

They found it. In the transcription of human DNA that had just been
finished and posted.

Sam
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing 

<jmfbahciv RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:

<Snip>
>
> Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope.
> Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist.
>
> /BAH
>
> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

Particuarly pathogens. No more taking to piegons, killing one and
smearing the blood on the other before releasing it to cure leprosy.

Knowledge of antibiothics and anesthesia and antiseptic technique.
--
Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote
Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Walter
 >> Stay informed about: post-doomsday computing