After reading The Da Vinci Code

Even though I am not a ardent follower of any particular denomination
or sect, I am troubled when any one is held up to ridicule in the media
and achieves mass market acceptance and praise. Assaults on personal
faith based belief systems from without seem not to be productive.

Catholic bashing seems very au courant these days because of the
revealed shortcomings of its followers and gatekeepers. Detractors
unfortunately focus on the weaknesses of the flesh and ignore the good
that comes with the spiritual component.

I recall years ago when Salman Rushdie wrote the Satantic Verses that a
price was placed on his head. I note that no such parallel exists with
Dan Brown.

Catholics don't feel it necessary to retaliate against critics with a
holy war, apparently.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

Julius wrote:
 > Even though I am not a ardent follower of any particular denomination
 > or sect, I am troubled when any one is held up to ridicule in the
media
 > and achieves mass market acceptance and praise.

I don't get it, are you troubled when a sect is ridiculed, or when it
achieves acceptance?

 > Assaults on personal
 > faith based belief systems from without seem not to be productive.

I agree about assaults, but searching discussions of a belief system to
arrive at the truth about one's own beliefs makes sense.

 > Catholic bashing seems very au courant these days because of the
 > revealed shortcomings of its followers and gatekeepers. Detractors
 > unfortunately focus on the weaknesses of the flesh and ignore the
good
 > that comes with the spiritual component.

Agreed. People who "bash" anybody because it's "au courant" are
insubstantial parasites anyway.

 > I recall years ago when Salman Rushdie wrote the Satantic Verses that
a
 > price was placed on his head. I note that no such parallel exists
with
 > Dan Brown.

 > Catholics don't feel it necessary to retaliate against critics with a
 > holy war, apparently.

There was a time when this difference between what we westerners permit
ourselves in the name of faith and what Muslims permitted themselves in
the name of faith meant something. Now that the American president has
waged an unjust war on the Iraqi people, however, I'm thinking there's
not that big of a difference any more. Of course, Bush is a
fundamentalist Christian, and that's a far cry from Catholicism.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"I agree about assaults, but searching discussions of a belief system
to
arrive at the truth about one's own beliefs makes sense."

Are you suggesting that this is what the novel accomplishes? Or are you
referring strictly to one's own personal search for these truths?


"Now that the American president has
waged an unjust war on the Iraqi people,"

Correction, Matt. it is just because our mission int he ME is to
protect our strategic and economic interests. The only way to bring
stability to the ME is to remake these countries in a democratic image
where freedom and liberty could exist. Part of this mission is to aid
and protect our chief ME ally Israel. Do you have a problem with that,
as far as Israel is concerned? Israel has been under a death sentence
by those Palestinian vermin since 1948. Our country must protect Israel
at all cost. It's our duty ot do so. We owe it to our own Jewish
American population and to all Jews of the world for ignoring the
Holocaust while it was happening.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

Let me clarify, DylanPD, for the record.

I lived on a kibbutz from 1972 to 1974. My job, among other things, was
to clean rifles and other armaments for the Israeli Army, some the
bravest fighting men (and women) ever in the world. I lived through the
1973 war with Egypt on the Sinai and survived through barrages of
gunfire and shelling attacks for a period of time.

So naturally I'm going to exhibit some very harsh and uncompromising
bias. You would be saying the same thing if you were in my shoes.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"So, although we disagree,"

I wasn't aware that we were disagreeing on anything. You simply called
me a "pottymouth." That's disagreement? I call that making a judgment.

" irrational
anger"

Irrational? I'd say pretty rational for being a member of a race of
people that have been persecuted and murdered for the last three
thousand years. Sixty years ago, six million of my people were killed
in Europe while the rest of the world sat on its hands.

Did you lose relatives in the Holocaust? I did. So don't tell me what's
rational or irrational.

I don't want you to do anything but acknowledge that you can't judge me
or my opinions on the subject of Arabs unless you've been through the
same experience as I have.

Tell me, why would you have a problem with calling Palestinians vermin?
Do you know anything about the situation over there beyond what the
dominate pro-Palestinian press in the US feeds you? Probably not.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"Julius" <gmarx.DeleteThis@angelfire.com> wrote:
 > Correction, Matt. it is just because our mission in the ME is to
 > protect our strategic and economic interests.

(sounding rational...)

 > The only way to bring stability to the ME is to remake these
 > countries in a democratic image where freedom and liberty
 > could exist.

(vague, but rational)

 > Part of this mission is to aid and protect our chief ME ally Israel.

(oh good, something specific)

 > Do you have a problem with that, as far as Israel is concerned?

(er...?)

 > Israel has been under a death sentence

(getting a little colorful now)

 > by those Palestinian vermin

(aaaand, now you're just a pottymouth. Never mind, you started out sounding
great.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

Sam: As you know, our government decides what to tell people about its
activities based on what will be most palatable, less complex, and less
alarming.

The real reason for our recent excursion into the ME is detailed in
this report. You'll need that free acrobat reader to open the file:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

This has been planned for sometime. 9/11 forced a more rapid
implementation of the plan, which I wholeheartedly endorse.

Iraq is just the first step in the plan. If we had more troops we could
have been controlling terrorist hotbeds such as Syria and Iran by now.
Because we don't, this plan must be implemented more incrementally.

Yes, this plan is a controversial bold step, but a necessary one. It is
essential to our future commercial interests as well. Why let a bunch
of radicals control the world's third largest oil reserve, for example?
I'd rather see the USA and Israel control the ME rather than let it be
run by cowardly Arab leaders who can't keep the radical Muslim
factions of in check. We are the only country witthe power to stabilize
and democratize the region.

In my estimation, charity is a gift to strangers you have no connection
with or interest in. As a Jew, Israelis are part of my blood, my
family. Gifts and gestures of largesse to family is not charity, but
what is expected of family.

Israel cannot fight their fight alone. They have too many enemies in
the world and cannot fight everyone alone. This is why they need our
help. The US, as well as the rest of the world, owes Israel and all
Jews of the world quite a bit in return for looking theother way during
the Holocaust. The State of Israel was only the start. Now Israel needs
to live in peace, free from worry about attacks from radical Islamists
such as the Palestinians. The only way to do that is to annihilate
every last member of Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, and al-qaeda. It will
take a long time, but it will be worth it, for the sake of the US, the
sake of Israel, and the sake of the whole world.

The US and Israel are the only countries that can accomplish this task.
We cannot depend on Muslim quislings like the UN and countries like
France, Germany, and now, Spain to help us. The have all run like
cowards and have capitulated to the Muslim world like a house of cards.
As the Muslim world grows in population, so will the threat of future
attacks on our people and property. These people cannot be reasoned
with. You cannot reason with savages that behead innocent victims in
front of TV cameras. This is why these people must be destroyed with
extreme prejudice if it takes fifty years.

We all have to get used to the fact that it's a different world now. We
must all be vigilant and prepared for attack at any time. We must also
accept the fact that this war, this Neo-Crusade, if you will, shall
continue for quite sometime. We must be prepared for that eventuality
as well.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"But they don't call people
vermin, and they oppose both state and non-state violence."

How do you know what they REALLY think of Jews? How do you know they
aren't bullshitting you? You don't know, dylan, that's the point. You
don't know what goes on in someone's mind or in private when no one is
around. They might be part of a hezbollah or hamas cell, plotting to
kill Americans or Jews, you'd never know.

Next time you see these neighbors, ask them what they have done to
denounce Islamic jihad, that is, if they think it's wrong.

If they don't, report them to the FBI ASAP so they can be watched
carefully. There's a war on, dylan, get with the program. You're an
American, so do your duty if need be.

BTW, anyone that kills innocent Jews IS vermin. How much more clear do
I have to make it? What am I supposed to do? Embrace these savages with
love? You've got to be fucking kidding. What a naive view you have of
the world, dylan.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"Julius" <gmarx.RemoveThis@angelfire.com> wrote in message
news:1104895912.941342.47880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
 > "I agree about assaults, but searching discussions of a belief system
 > to
 > arrive at the truth about one's own beliefs makes sense."
 >
 > Are you suggesting that this is what the novel accomplishes? Or are you
 > referring strictly to one's own personal search for these truths?
 >
 >
 > "Now that the American president has
 > waged an unjust war on the Iraqi people,"
 >
 > Correction, Matt. it is just because our mission int he ME is to
 > protect our strategic and economic interests. The only way to bring
 > stability to the ME is to remake these countries in a democratic image
 > where freedom and liberty could exist. Part of this mission is to aid
 > and protect our chief ME ally Israel.

I've read what you've written about your past and I appreciate your honesty
regarding your bias. Still, let's look at this as objectively as we can.

I don't recall the administration using the " protect our strategic
interests" or "protect our chief ME ally, Israel"
as important lines of reasoning when preparing the nation and the world for
the war with Iraq. I remember much talk about WMD's and ties to Al Queda
and such, and yes, some secondary justification for taking out a despot who
threatened his ME neighbors.

I don't have a problem with our supporting and even defending Israel, it's
just that this particular adventure doesn't seem to do either. Furthermore,
if one were to use the logic you've put forth in other posts here today, one
might say that our involvement seems almost an act of charity, an
investment with questionable returns.
Far too giving, absent the bias to which you admit.

And finally, don't you think that Israel was able to contend with a third
rate military force like Iraq without our help ? I recall them bombing
suspected nuclear sites a while ago and there were no repurcussions.
I'd much rather see our efforts go towards resolving the Palestinian issue.
We are perfectly capable of jumping in with military assistance should
Israel ever need it.
Now we're lucky we can afford a few troops for the disaster in Asia.

Sam





Do you have a problem with that,
 > as far as Israel is concerned? Israel has been under a death sentence
 > by those Palestinian vermin since 1948. Our country must protect Israel
 > at all cost. It's our duty ot do so. We owe it to our own Jewish
 > American population and to all Jews of the world for ignoring the
 > Holocaust while it was happening.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

Julius wrote:

 > Tell me, why would you have a problem with calling Palestinians vermin?

Saw a Big Book of New Yorker Cartoons at Borders. Leafing through,
as I was invited to do by its display, I noted, inter alia, a cartoon
of a rat casually addressing a cockroach. "I admire your work," he says.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"Julius" <gmarx.DeleteThis@angelfire.com> wrote:
> Let me clarify, DylanPD, for the record.
> So naturally I'm going to exhibit some very harsh and uncompromising
> bias. You would be saying the same thing if you were in my shoes.

So, although we disagree, you'd like me to empathize with the irrational
anger underlying your position, which you experience due to having lived
under fire, eh? That's a very valuable exercise, everyone should do it.

On the other hand, imaginative empathy is a tricky thing, because not
everyone does respond to extreme conditions in the same way we imagine that
we would -- as in the case of the many Israelis and Palestinians who refuse
to fight.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

"Julius" <gmarx.DeleteThis@angelfire.com> wrote:
> Did you lose relatives in the Holocaust? I did.
> So don't tell me what's rational or irrational.

Okay.

> I don't want you to do anything but acknowledge that you can't judge me
> or my opinions on the subject of Arabs unless you've been through the
> same experience as I have.

But many people with the same experiences don't have your opinions, don't
support an aggressive Middle Eastern policy, and don't call human beings
"vermin." So I don't think your opinions can possibly be the inevitable
result of your experiences. I think they're a response you've chosen.

> Tell me, why would you have a problem with calling Palestinians vermin?
> Do you know anything about the situation over there beyond what the
> dominate pro-Palestinian press in the US feeds you? Probably not.

The couple in the apartment below mine is Palestinian, and the woman's
mother lives in Ramallah. Their perspective, like that of the New York
Times, has a strong pro-Palestinian bias. But they don't call people
vermin, and they oppose both state and non-state violence.
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code 

In reference to my downstairs neighbors, Meemo and Lucy,
"Julius" <gmarx.TakeThisOut@angelfire.com> wrote:
> Dylanbd wrote:
> > But they don't call people vermin, and they
> > oppose both state and non-state violence."
>
> How do you know what they REALLY think of Jews?
> How do you know they aren't bullshitting you? [...]
> They might be part of a hezbollah or hamas cell, plotting to
> kill Americans or Jews, you'd never know.
> Next time you see these neighbors, ask them what they have done to
> denounce Islamic jihad, that is, if they think it's wrong.
>
> If they don't, report them to the FBI ASAP so they can be watched
> carefully. There's a war on, dylan, get with the program. You're an
> American, so do your duty if need be.

There's really nothing I can add to this extraordinary display. Are you a
parody?
 >> Stay informed about: After reading The Da Vinci Code