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Next: J.R.R. Tolkien: Centuries, reigns and all that
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External
Since: Apr 24, 2004
Posts: 458
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:24 am
Post subject: For the record....
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien, others (more info?)
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As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites
which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting
discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are
pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being
used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities.
Nonetheless, I often come across some of our more interesting
(flame-free) discussions through those interfaces. I also come across
the occasional current MM reference made in my absence.
Why am I telling you all this? Because one of the current MM Myths is
that I constantly lurk here or something like that. There is no need
to lurk. Google and the other search engines keep feeding me constant
updates on my status in the flame groups whether I want them or not.
I just wanted to be able to refer back to this announcement the next
time somsone wrongly accuses me of lurking or whatever.
Anyway, seeing as I have been browsing these discussions so often of
late, I was amused to see that Google had archived 14,000 posts by me
in rec.arts.books.tolkien. More than anyone else. It's a shame so
many of them had to be responses to flames. I suppose Ojevind's
11,000+ posts are mostly off-topic, but he did occasionally provide
some useful, thought-provoking comments when he didn't want to be an
ass.
And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo
Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references
to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he
can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the
years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they
were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved
at all.
I am curious if any active participants in these groups actually use
those Web-based interfaces (and, no, I don't have any URLs handy --
they are legion and much easier to find than I want them to be).
I have often browsed Neil Franklin's archive of Usenet posts. He does
a pretty good job of capturing whole discussions. I think he does it
by hand, though one would hope he uses a program. I've often found
old citations I wanted to reuse at his site, and I am glad he kept it
up.
Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty
busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the
Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks
ago)? |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 207
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b RemoveThis @posting.google.com>,
Michael RemoveThis @xenite.org says...
<snip>
>
> And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo
> Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references
> to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he
> can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the
> years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they
> were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved
> at all.
LOL, which historical accuracy? That regarding what is more on topic for
AFT/RABT or his other (more political) penchant? Or both?
>
> I am curious if any active participants in these groups actually use
> those Web-based interfaces (and, no, I don't have any URLs handy --
> they are legion and much easier to find than I want them to be).
>
> I have often browsed Neil Franklin's archive of Usenet posts. He does
> a pretty good job of capturing whole discussions. I think he does it
> by hand, though one would hope he uses a program. I've often found
> old citations I wanted to reuse at his site, and I am glad he kept it
> up.
>
> Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty
> busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the
> Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks
> ago)?
>
Not that I know, you summed it up pretty well. I was hoping Mr. Hammond
would pop in with some commentary, but he has not been around in a
while.
--
Tar-Elenion
He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt. |
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External
Since: May 15, 2004
Posts: 313
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tar-Elenion wrote:
> Not that I know, you summed it up pretty well. I was hoping Mr. Hammond
> would pop in with some commentary, but he has not been around in a
> while.
I expect that Mr. Hammond has been busy with his (& her) Companion
& Guide. It was #1 on my Christmas list last year; then it became
my intended anniversary gift; now the release date is Oct. 21, so
we're probably talking Christmas again. I expect it will be well
worth the wait.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Apr 24, 2004
Posts: 458
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:44 pm
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tar-Elenion <tar_elenion.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b267a2e5a368a5989736.DeleteThis@news.comcast.giganews.com>...
> In article <3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
> Michael.DeleteThis@xenite.org says...
> <snip>
> >
> > And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo
> > Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references
> > to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he
> > can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the
> > years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they
> > were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved
> > at all.
>
> LOL, which historical accuracy? That regarding what is more on topic for
> AFT/RABT or his other (more political) penchant? Or both?
I think I best just leave it at that. Let the text be ambiguous.
> > Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty
> > busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the
> > Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks
> > ago)?
> >
> Not that I know, you summed it up pretty well. I was hoping Mr. Hammond
> would pop in with some commentary, but he has not been around in a
> while.
Thanks for the update. I suppose I could ask him. I may bring this
up on a discussion list he occasionally visits. Perhaps he'll say
something there. >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 83
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:14 am
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Michael.RemoveThis@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in message news:<3b26e128.0406011024.2e54c03b.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>...
> As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites
> which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting
> discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are
> pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being
> used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities.
>
> Nonetheless, I often come across some of our more interesting
> (flame-free) discussions through those interfaces. I also come across
> the occasional current MM reference made in my absence.
>
> Why am I telling you all this? Because one of the current MM Myths is
> that I constantly lurk here or something like that. There is no need
> to lurk. Google and the other search engines keep feeding me constant
> updates on my status in the flame groups whether I want them or not.
> I just wanted to be able to refer back to this announcement the next
> time somsone wrongly accuses me of lurking or whatever.
>
> Anyway, seeing as I have been browsing these discussions so often of
> late, I was amused to see that Google had archived 14,000 posts by me
> in rec.arts.books.tolkien. More than anyone else. It's a shame so
> many of them had to be responses to flames. I suppose Ojevind's
> 11,000+ posts are mostly off-topic, but he did occasionally provide
> some useful, thought-provoking comments when he didn't want to be an
> ass.
>
> And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo
> Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references
> to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he
> can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the
> years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they
> were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved
> at all.
>
> I am curious if any active participants in these groups actually use
> those Web-based interfaces (and, no, I don't have any URLs handy --
> they are legion and much easier to find than I want them to be).
>
> I have often browsed Neil Franklin's archive of Usenet posts. He does
> a pretty good job of capturing whole discussions. I think he does it
> by hand, though one would hope he uses a program. I've often found
> old citations I wanted to reuse at his site, and I am glad he kept it
> up.
>
> Haven't really noticed anything else here lately. I've been pretty
> busy. Did anyone ever ask for more information on Tolkien and the
> Book of Job (or whatever it was that brought me back here a few weeks
> ago)?
Michael Martinez, is it true that the majority of California's state
gossamer is entwined within your poodle-brush? >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 227
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Michael Martinez wrote:
<snip>
> And I enjoyed Michael O'Neill's "History of Michael Martinez and Bilbo
> Baggins", which I arrived at through a laborious search for references
> to the history of Babylon. Even when Michael chooses to be an ass, he
> can be quite funny and his form has improved tremendously through the
> years. I have to say that his flames are more enjoyable than they
> were in years past, although his historical accuracy has not improved
> at all.
<bows>
At your service, Mr. Baggins.
Lurking again, I see.
<chuckle>
M. >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 55
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:32 pm
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 1 Jun 2004 11:24:01 -0700, Michael.RemoveThis@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
wrote:
>As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites
>which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting
>discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are
>pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being
>used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities.
Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a desirable and
positive development? If not, do you have any suggestions on how the
problem can be corrected?
Morgoth's Curse >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 189
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:31 am
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002.RemoveThis@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in
news:4384c0lqa7agftvqfm4b5h4jsm20dqi37c@4ax.com:
> On 1 Jun 2004 11:24:01 -0700, Michael.RemoveThis@xenite.org (Michael
> Martinez) wrote:
>
>>As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and
>>more sites which are trawling the news groups for content
>>and reposting discussions as if they were Web-based forum
>>discussions. These are pretty sophisticated-looking
>>gateways, and I suppose they are being used to gain search
>>engine rankings rather than to build communities.
>
> Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a
> desirable and positive development? If not, do you have any
> suggestions on how the problem can be corrected?
>
> Morgoth's Curse
One thing that you can do, if you find any of your postings on
such a site, is write to the webmaster in charge and request
that your property (writings) be removed, as you have not given
permission for them to be displayed on that site. Getting
lawyers involved is sticky and expensive, but in some cases
could be warranted. It depends on how the folks whose posts
have been trawled feel.
--
TeaLady / mari conroy >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Jan 29, 2004
Posts: 236
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Quoth "TeaLady (Mari C.)" <spressobean.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> in article
<Xns9503E52B42A7Bspblt.TakeThisOut@130.133.1.4>:
> Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002.TakeThisOut@nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
> > Michael.TakeThisOut@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote:
> >>...I am finding more and more sites which are trawling the news
> >>groups for content and reposting discussions as if they were
> >>Web-based forum discussions.
> > Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a desirable
> > and positive development? If not, do you have any suggestions on
> > how the problem can be corrected?
> One thing that you can do, if you find any of your postings on such
> a site, is write to the webmaster in charge and request that your
> property (writings) be removed, as you have not given permission for
> them to be displayed on that site.
Hmm. I'm honestly not sure what your rights are in this case
(especially since I have no legal training whatsoever). By posting to
Usenet, you are explicitly sending your writings to be stored for some
period of time on thousands of computers worldwide. Unless you set a
specific "Expires" header, I don't think you have any reasonable
expectation about when they will be taken off of those servers (and I
don't know that the servers are obligated to honor them). Unless you
set an "X-No-Archive" header (which isn't even "offical" as far as I
know, hence the initial "X-"), you can be sure that it will be
archived essentially forever on Google Groups and possibly many other
sites (public or private). And you certainly have no control over how
public each news server makes its content: some are specific to one
ISP, while others are available to the whole world for a fee or even
free of charge.
The point is, wide distribution and "mirroring" are a fundamental part
of Usenet. When you post here, you certainly retain copyright on what
you've written, but I would guess that you have implicitly given every
Usenet server permission to make those writings public and to forward
copies to other servers. It's not clear to me that the websites that
display our discussions are doing anything at all illegal. (Even if
they are being deceptive by trying to pass us off as part of their own
community.)
Steuard Jensen >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 122
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In rec.arts.books.tolkien Michael Martinez <Michael.RemoveThis@xenite.org> wrote:
> As I do research for various topics, I am finding more and more sites
> which are trawling the news groups for content and reposting
> discussions as if they were Web-based forum discussions. These are
> pretty sophisticated-looking gateways, and I suppose they are being
> used to gain search engine rankings rather than to build communities.
Yep... for instance, go to "www.talkaboutabook.com" and
select "J.R.R. Tolkien" (under the Js for some reason). You
will find some very familiar-looking discussions.
This seems to be part of something called the "talkabout
network", which seems to have a structure amazingly similar to
that of Usenet.
The site puffs the Tolkien discussion with the phrase:
"Discuss author J.R.R. Tolkien in the most comprehensive forum online."
I don't know whether to be proud or offended by that.
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.) >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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External
Since: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 189
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:17 am
Post subject: Re: For the record.... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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sbjensen.RemoveThis@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in
news:Ia%xc.15$25.6470@news.uchicago.edu:
> Quoth "TeaLady (Mari C.)" <spressobean.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> in article
> <Xns9503E52B42A7Bspblt.RemoveThis@130.133.1.4>:
>> Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2002.RemoveThis@nospamyahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Michael.RemoveThis@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote:
>> >>...I am finding more and more sites which are trawling
>> >>the news groups for content and reposting discussions as
>> >>if they were Web-based forum discussions.
>
>> > Just out of curiosity, Michael, do you regard this as a
>> > desirable and positive development? If not, do you have
>> > any suggestions on how the problem can be corrected?
>
>> One thing that you can do, if you find any of your postings
>> on such a site, is write to the webmaster in charge and
>> request that your property (writings) be removed, as you
>> have not given permission for them to be displayed on that
>> site.
>
> Hmm. I'm honestly not sure what your rights are in this
> case (especially since I have no legal training whatsoever).
> By posting to Usenet, you are explicitly sending your
> writings to be stored for some period of time on thousands
> of computers worldwide. Unless you set a specific "Expires"
> header, I don't think you have any reasonable expectation
> about when they will be taken off of those servers (and I
> don't know that the servers are obligated to honor them).
> Unless you set an "X-No-Archive" header (which isn't even
> "offical" as far as I know, hence the initial "X-"), you can
> be sure that it will be archived essentially forever on
> Google Groups and possibly many other sites (public or
> private). And you certainly have no control over how public
> each news server makes its content: some are specific to one
> ISP, while others are available to the whole world for a fee
> or even free of charge.
>
> The point is, wide distribution and "mirroring" are a
> fundamental part of Usenet. When you post here, you
> certainly retain copyright on what you've written, but I
> would guess that you have implicitly given every Usenet
> server permission to make those writings public and to
> forward copies to other servers. It's not clear to me that
> the websites that display our discussions are doing anything
> at all illegal. (Even if they are being deceptive by trying
> to pass us off as part of their own community.)
> Steuard Jensen
>
I may be not quite understanding the problem as presented. I
certainly don't understand all the little laws and rulings and
such other legal things that could affect the legality of the
trawlers snagging our discussions. We may have no rights or
laws to use to stop this. We may have many. I don't know.
I do understand that usenet is public, and that anyone who wants
to can read, copy, repost, archive, etc., what I posted.
If the site and its operators are being deceptive they can be
"outed" - exposed - for stealing the works and words of others
who are not part of the community and don't want to be. The web
master(s) and host(s) can be emailed by each person whose posts
appear without permission, and if enough emails are sent,
something might done, just to prevent bad press, if for no other
reason.
I am sure that somewhere there exist lawyers who specialize in
this sort of thing - intellectual property rights, most likely,
would apply, and I'm certain that as a "group" r.a.b.t. has
property rights to the posts herein. The question becomes "Is
it worth the time, expense and aggravation" of finding and
hiring such lawyers, not is the abusive site doing something
illegal. I am also sure that someone, if not from r.a.b.t.,
then some other group, will eventually get angry enough to give
it a whirl. Then we will all know just exactly (ok, almost
exactly, as all lawyers leave wiggle room) where the usenet/www
fine line of fair use/infringement/theft of property is.
--
TeaLady / mari conroy >> Stay informed about: For the record.... |
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