Why doesn't sauron know...

IIRC doesnt he see Merry in the Palantir and believe that he now has the
ring
"cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_fheal.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-1612030009400001@c138.ppp.tsoft.com...
> In article <7c6a5de0.0312152257.57c7d4a6.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>,
> bw2082.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com (bw) wrote:
>
> > which Hobbit has the ring? Didn't he see Frodo have it when he put it
> > on? It would seem to me that even if Sauron did think that they might
> > have moved the ring to a safe location or passing it between them that
> > he should still be going after Frodo instead of the other 3 Hobbits.
>
> other than sammath naur when does sauron see frodo
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

BW wrote:
>which Hobbit has the ring? Didn't he see Frodo have it when he put it
>on? It would seem to me that even if Sauron did think that they might
>have moved the ring to a safe location or passing it between them that
>he should still be going after Frodo instead of the other 3 Hobbits.

Well, first off, you're assuming that Sauron actually got a good look at Frodo.
In the book, that definitely isn't the case. And in the movie the question is
left fairly wide open.

And even if Sauron knows what Frodo looks like, he may not know Frodo's name.
He knows that the Ring passed to Bilbo Baggins from Gollum, but he doesn't know
what happened to the Ring then. He knows it was in the possession of a hobbit
-- possibly with the name Underhill -- at Bree, and that it then reached
Rivendell. He suspects a hobbit may still be carrying it, but he can't be sure.

Now, let's assume that all of this information is passed onto Saruman. What
good does it do them when they send out their orcs to grab the halflings? The
orcs don't know what Frodo looks like, and Frodo could simply lie about his
name.

Once the Fellowship breaks up, Sauron and Saruman lose track of Frodo
altogether in the book. Saruman knows that his orcs captured two halflings, who
were then lost at the edges of Fangorn, and then turned up with the Ents and
later Gandalf at Isengard. Sauron knows that Saruman's orcs captured two
halflings, and that one of the halflings then used a palantir (Sauron probably
believes, erroneously, that this was caused by Saruman). Neither Saruman not
Sauron is aware that there is a third halfling on his way into Mordor.

Sauron probably figures out that Saruman wasn't responsible for the hobbit
using the palantir (once his minions tell him what has happened at Isengard
and/or Aragorn uses the palantir). But his next most logical conclusion is that
the hobbit has joined with Aragorn, and that the heir of Isildur now controls
the Ring.

(In the movie, Frodo pops up in Osgiliath, of course. This completely disrupts
the *entire* train of misperception found in the books, and it hasn't been
replaced with anything else in the films. Although we can hypothesize that
Sauron will conclude that Gondor may have the Ring, which will have much the
same response as his belief, in the books, that Aragorn has the Ring: Speed up
his mobilization against Minas Tirith.)

Justin Bacon
triad3204 RemoveThis @aol.com
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

"bw" <bw2082 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7c6a5de0.0312152257.57c7d4a6@posting.google.com...
> which Hobbit has the ring? Didn't he see Frodo have it when he put it
> on?

Not in the books.

Aris Katsaris
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

Quoth bw2082 DeleteThis @yahoo.com (bw) in article
<7c6a5de0.0312152257.57c7d4a6 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>:
> which Hobbit has the ring? Didn't he see Frodo have it when he put
> it on?

Only in the movie, and a lot of think that's a potential plot hole.
After all, why wouldn't he have just as readily seen Bilbo when _he_
put it on? (In movie-time, Bilbo's disappearance at the Party was
just a few months before Frodo's departure, so Sauron should have been
more or less just as active at the time.)

In the books, Sauron never manages to fix his ("mental") eye on Frodo
until the very end, when he spots Frodo at the Cracks of Doom. He was
apparently totally unaware of people using the Ring except at
"special" locations (Amon Hen and the Sammath Naur are the only two we
know of); after all, he was still searching for the Ring in the river
Anduin despite the fact that Gollum was using it regularly in the
mountains. It's not clear why Amon Hen was a special case, but it's
possible that its "magical" enhancement of vision allowed Sauron to
sense Frodo's Ring-tainted will when he looked upon Barad-dur. But
even then, Frodo took off the Ring before Sauron's gaze could pin him
down.

> It would seem to me that even if Sauron did think that they might
> have moved the ring to a safe location or passing it between them
> that he should still be going after Frodo instead of the other 3
> Hobbits.

As others have pointed out, even if Sauron _had_ seen Frodo from afar
and knew he had the Ring, it would be pretty hard to describe him
uniquely to his servants who were actually seeking him. "To sheep
other sheep no doubt appear different." Without knowing Hobbits
well, neither Sauron nor his servants would be likely to recognize
many of the differences between them.

To address the comments made elsewhere about Sauron seeing Pippin in
the Palantir, I don't think that Sauron ever believed that Pippin had
the Ring. He thought Pippin was a prisoner of Saruman, and if he
_had_ had the Ring, it would be a safe assumption that Saruman had
taken it from him. But Sauron was aware of Saruman's own aspirations
for power and for the Ring; the very fact that Saruman had not claimed
it or challenged Sauron was probably proof enough that he didn't have
it. Sauron thought Pippin would be a very valuable subject for
questioning, and that's just about it. (Now, it's an open question
just how much of that thinking would have been revised when Aragorn
showed himself in the Palantir: maybe at that point Sauron _did_ think
that Pippin had had the Ring, but that Aragorn now held it. But in
that case, he _still_ wouldn't think that Pippin was the Hobbit with
the Ring... because it was no longer held by a Hobbit at all.)

Steuard Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

In article <7c6a5de0.0312152257.57c7d4a6.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>, bw2082.DeleteThis@yahoo.com
(bw) writes:

>which Hobbit has the ring? Didn't he see Frodo have it when he put it
>on?

No, that's only in the movie that happens. In the books, the only time Sauron
is able to lock onto Frodo wearing the Ring is when he is on the Seat of Seeing
and actually 'taps" Sauron on the proverbial shoulder.

> It would seem to me that even if Sauron did think that they might
>have moved the ring to a safe location or passing it between them that
>he should still be going after Frodo instead of the other 3 Hobbits.

He has absolutely no idea a hobbit is heading towards Mordor.

Russ
----------------------
"If you are in Iraq and there is an attack in America, you're going to look out
of position, and no one wants that, particularly during a sweeps month," Dan
Rather on why he won't visit Iraq.
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

"Rick Dogg" <Rcsndwdge DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kPGdnWLgvOu2X0OiRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> IIRC doesnt he see Merry in the Palantir and believe that he now has
the
> ring

Pippin.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:54:22 GMT, sbjensen.TakeThisOut@midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>In the books, Sauron never manages to fix his ("mental") eye on Frodo
>until the very end, when he spots Frodo at the Cracks of Doom.
....

Yeah what he said, and Russ, too.

Friggin' movie.

Well, I'm off to see the friggin' conclusion tomorrow.

J.
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

Steurd Jensen wrote:
>Only in the movie, and a lot of think that's a potential plot hole.
>After all, why wouldn't he have just as readily seen Bilbo when _he_
>put it on? (In movie-time, Bilbo's disappearance at the Party was
>just a few months before Frodo's departure, so Sauron should have been
>more or less just as active at the time.)

Sauron may not have been looking. If we assume that Sauron was unaware of the
Ring's continued existence until he captures Gollum (explicitly true in the
books, of course, but not brought up in the movies), and Gollum was captured
between Bilbo's last use of the Ring and Frodo's first use of it, then it might
be safe to assume that Sauron wasn't looking.

JB
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

Justin Bacon wrote:

> >Only in the movie, and a lot of think that's a potential plot hole.
> >After all, why wouldn't he have just as readily seen Bilbo when _he_
> >put it on? (In movie-time, Bilbo's disappearance at the Party was
> >just a few months before Frodo's departure, so Sauron should have been
> >more or less just as active at the time.)
> Sauron may not have been looking. If we assume that Sauron was unaware of the
> Ring's continued existence until he captures Gollum (explicitly true in the
> books, of course, but not brought up in the movies), and Gollum was captured
> between Bilbo's last use of the Ring and Frodo's first use of it, then it might
> be safe to assume that Sauron wasn't looking.

And, by the time Frodo accidentally wears the Ring in Bree, Sauron may
be looking in the right direction as well, since he knew where the Shire
was.

-JJ
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

"bw" <bw2082.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> which Hobbit has the ring? Didn't he see Frodo have it when he put it
> on? It would seem to me that even if Sauron did think that they might
> have moved the ring to a safe location or passing it between them that
> he should still be going after Frodo instead of the other 3 Hobbits.

First of all, you have to consider the mind of Sauron. Sauron cannot
conceive that the enemy will allow the ring to be taken by a Hobbit on a
"foolhardy" quest to destroy it. Sauron, who fully understands the power and
the almost irresistible temptation of the ring, believes that the enemy will
attempt to use the ring or hide it in the most strongest location - ie the
City of Gondor.

In the film and book, Merry and Pippin are taken by orcs under the orders of
Saruman so that he can take the ring from them by force - well, Saruman
didn't know there was more than one hobbit on the loose - or interrogate
them to find out the location of the ring.

Anyhow, in the film - it could be explained that it is Frodo who sees the
EYE. And not the other way around. So when he puts it on - Sauron probably
sensed it was being used - but didn't know where.
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

Jussi Jaatinen wrote:
>Justin Bacon wrote:
>
>> >Only in the movie, and a lot of think that's a potential plot hole.
>> >After all, why wouldn't he have just as readily seen Bilbo when _he_
>> >put it on? (In movie-time, Bilbo's disappearance at the Party was
>> >just a few months before Frodo's departure, so Sauron should have been
>> >more or less just as active at the time.)
>>
>> Sauron may not have been looking. If we assume that Sauron was unaware of
the
>> Ring's continued existence until he captures Gollum (explicitly true in the
>> books, of course, but not brought up in the movies), and Gollum was captured
>> between Bilbo's last use of the Ring and Frodo's first use of it, then it
might
>> be safe to assume that Sauron wasn't looking.
>
>And, by the time Frodo accidentally wears the Ring in Bree, Sauron may
>be looking in the right direction as well, since he knew where the Shire
>was.

Exactly.

JB
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

Crimson Castle wrote:
>Anyhow, in the film - it could be explained that it is Frodo who sees the
>EYE. And not the other way around.

Not really. The first time Frodo sees the EYE, it says: "I see you." Now, it
could be bluffing. But that seems counter-intuitive.

Justin Bacon
triad3204.DeleteThis@aol.com
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know... 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:54:22 GMT, sbjensen.TakeThisOut@midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:

>In the books, Sauron never manages to fix his ("mental") eye on Frodo
>until the very end, when he spots Frodo at the Cracks of Doom.

I've always equated Sauron 'seeing' Frodo in Sammath Nuar for one
reason: not because Frodo put on the ring, but because Frodo put on
the ring AND claimed it as his own. THAT got Sauron's attention!
 >> Stay informed about: Why doesn't sauron know...