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Next: Madonna Rules Again!!!
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Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 12
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:58 pm
Post subject: please solve my confusion Archived from groups: alt>fan>tolkien, others (more info?)
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in the Chapter 'Minas Tirith' Pippin is musing to himself:
Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then HE had not thought
of Gandalf as one of them
(the capitalization of HE is mine)
who is the "he" ? Pippin or Treebeard? Treebeard in the eponymous chapter
refers to Gandalf as "the only wizard that cares about trees"
but could Pippin have not thought of Gandalf as a wizard? >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Feb 19, 2004 Posts: 692
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:37 am
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In message
"Chris Hoelscher" spoke these staves:
>
> in the Chapter 'Minas Tirith' Pippin is musing to himself:
>
> Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then HE had
> not thought of Gandalf as one of them
>
> (the capitalization of HE is mine)
>
> who is the "he" ? Pippin or Treebeard? Treebeard in the eponymous
> chapter refers to Gandalf as "the only wizard that cares about
> trees"
The 'he' is certainly Pippin himself, there cannot be much doubt
about that.
> but could Pippin have not thought of Gandalf as a wizard?
This appears in the context of Denethor and Gandalf's staring
contest, and Pippin suddenly wondering about Gandalf's background:
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that
Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a
majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. 'How
much older?' he wondered, and then he thought how odd it
was that he had never thought about it before.
[LotR V,1 'Minas Tirith']
Given the context, I believe that Pippin is referring (mostly) to the
following of Treebeards explanations:
I have not troubled about the Great Wars,' said Treebeard;
'they mostly concern Elves and Men. That is the business
of Wizards: Wizards are always troubled about the future.
I do not like worrying about the future.
[LotR III,4 'Treebeard']
and
'Saruman is a Wizard,' answered Treebeard. 'More than that
I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They
appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but
if they came with the Ships I never can tell. Saruman was
reckoned great among them, I believe.
[LotR III,4 'Treebeard']
The capitalization of 'Wizard' is Tolkien's throughout.
So, I think it is likely that what Pippin means here is that he has
never wondered about Gandalf's background, and even when Treebeard
spoke about the background and policies of the Wizards (capitalized),
he didn't think of this as applying to Gandalf -- not that he didn't
know that Gandalf was a wizard as such, but he had never thought of
him as 'a Wizard' (to use Tolkien's capitalization as applied to
Saruman). I don't know if there were more than one word in Westron
that is 'translated' as wizard, but I believe that the capitalized
version refers to the Istari and the non-capitalized version would
then refer to magic-users in general. Thus the Mouth of Sauron would
have been a wizard, but not a Wizard. In the passage from V,1 Pippin
suddenly realizes that Gandalf is not just some 'old wandering
conjuror'. I think we are meant to take this as a sign of Pippin's
own growth and ennoblement.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true.
- Niels Bohr, to a young physicist >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 19
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:52 am
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
I don't know if there were more than one word in Westron
> that is 'translated' as wizard, but I believe that the capitalized
> version refers to the Istari and the non-capitalized version would
> then refer to magic-users in general.
Does Tolkien ever use the word "wizard" when not referring to one of the
Istari?
Thus the Mouth of Sauron would
> have been a wizard, but not a Wizard.
Tolkien uses words such as "sorceror" and "necromancer" for those who
practice the black arts, namely Sauron, the Witch-King and MOS. Without
consulting the books, I can't think of an instance where such practitioners
were referred to as "wizards."
--
Bill
"Wise fool."
Gandalf _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!) >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Apr 18, 2008 Posts: 21
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:18 am
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bill O' Meally wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> I don't know if there were more than one word in Westron
>> that is 'translated' as wizard, but I believe that the capitalized
>> version refers to the Istari and the non-capitalized version would
>> then refer to magic-users in general.
>
> Does Tolkien ever use the word "wizard" when not referring to one of the
> Istari?
>
> Thus the Mouth of Sauron would
>> have been a wizard, but not a Wizard.
>
> Tolkien uses words such as "sorceror" and "necromancer" for those who
> practice the black arts, namely Sauron, the Witch-King and MOS. Without
> consulting the books, I can't think of an instance where such practitioners
> were referred to as "wizards."
Now you are assuming that Pippin (!) is as subtle as you are; be wary,
or you will soon be thought as simple as Pippin is.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004) >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Sep 07, 2007 Posts: 75
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:21 pm
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"John W Kennedy" wrote in message
> Now you are assuming that Pippin (!) is as subtle as you are; be wary,
> or you will soon be thought as simple as Pippin is.
I would not mind to be thought as "simple" as Pippin......
-W >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Jan 15, 2006 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:34 pm
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bill O' Meally wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> I don't know if there were more than one word in Westron
>> that is 'translated' as wizard, but I believe that the capitalized
>> version refers to the Istari and the non-capitalized version would
>> then refer to magic-users in general.
>
> Does Tolkien ever use the word "wizard" when not referring to one of the
> Istari?
>
> Thus the Mouth of Sauron would
>> have been a wizard, but not a Wizard.
>
> Tolkien uses words such as "sorceror" and "necromancer" for those who
> practice the black arts, namely Sauron, the Witch-King and MOS. Without
> consulting the books, I can't think of an instance where such practitioners
> were referred to as "wizards."
It's pretty clear to me that the name "Wizard," or the Westron
equivalent, was given to the Istari by Men and Hobbits, just as the
names Gandalf, Saruman, and Radigast were given to them. Simple folk
like Middle-men and Hobbits don't even realize that there's a difference
between "wizards" and "Wizards." Since the stories are supposed to come
from the Hobbits' accounts, these terms can get confused.
Remember also that very, very few people in Middle-earth knew anything
about the Istari. *WE* know they were five Maiar come from Aman on a
quest to help the peoples of Middle-earth fight against the Shadow, but
almost nobody in Middle-earth knew that. Even the Istari themselves
tended to forget it! All anybody really knows is that they're these
mysterious old men who know magic and go about on secret business.
--
David
Stardate 8821.6 >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 19
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:55 am
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Trimboli wrote:
> It's pretty clear to me that the name "Wizard," or the Westron
> equivalent, was given to the Istari by Men and Hobbits, just as the
> names Gandalf, Saruman, and Radigast were given to them. Simple folk
> like Middle-men and Hobbits don't even realize that there's a
> difference between "wizards" and "Wizards."
But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard" who is
not an Istar?
--
Bill
"Wise fool."
Gandalf _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!) >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 9
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:19 pm
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Bill O' Meally" wrote in message
> David Trimboli wrote:
>> It's pretty clear to me that the name "Wizard," or the Westron
>> equivalent, was given to the Istari by Men and Hobbits, just as the
>> names Gandalf, Saruman, and Radigast were given to them. Simple folk
>> like Middle-men and Hobbits don't even realize that there's a
>> difference between "wizards" and "Wizards."
>
> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard"
> who is not an Istar?
How about Beorn calling Radigast "not bad, as wizards go," or something
to that effect? He didn't know Gandalf, so just how many Istari did he
know? How many magicians did he know? He could have been making himself
seem as if he knew what he was talking about, when in fact he didn't
know any Istari—except maybe Radigast—or indeed any magicians at all.
When a hobbit says "He's a wizard," he doesn't mean "He's one of the
five Istari from over the sea." A hobbit simply doesn't know about that.
Not even the Beornings, Middle-men, know about that. Not Dwarves, not
most Elves. Only a very few of the Wise have any idea who the Istari
are. Círdan, Eldron, Galadriel, and Celeborn obviously know who Gandalf
was, and I'll bet Glorfindel did too. Aragorn probably guessed. Beyond
that, I doubt anybody really knew who the Istari were.
The hobbits of the Shire knew Gandalf as "the wandering wizard," and
liked his fireworks, but knew nothing else about him. We're never told
that any of them find his obvious great age remarkable. Why not? He's a
wizard? They're magic! (I also wonder if this wasn't part of Gandalf's
power, to keep himself relatively hidden unless he chose to reveal
himself. It's like he's got a Somebody Else's Problem generator in his
staff.)
--
David
Stardate 8827.3 >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Jul 18, 2008 Posts: 85
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:25 am
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David Trimboli" skrev i meddelandet
[snip]
> How about Beorn calling Radigast "not bad, as wizards go," or something to
> that effect? He didn't know Gandalf, so just how many Istari did he know?
> How many magicians did he know? He could have been making himself seem as
> if he knew what he was talking about, when in fact he didn't know any
> Istari—except maybe Radigast—or indeed any magicians at all.
>
> When a hobbit says "He's a wizard," he doesn't mean "He's one of the five
> Istari from over the sea." A hobbit simply doesn't know about that. Not
> even the Beornings, Middle-men, know about that. Not Dwarves, not most
> Elves. Only a very few of the Wise have any idea who the Istari are.
> Círdan, Eldron, Galadriel, and Celeborn obviously know who Gandalf was,
> and I'll bet Glorfindel did too. Aragorn probably guessed. Beyond that, I
> doubt anybody really knew who the Istari were.
I may misremember, but didn't Tolkien make a statement somewhere that there
were also minor wizards, as it were? Sent across the Sea like the Five, but
less powerful?
Perhaps Ioreth was one of them? She affirmed her true sexuality and then
hid herself in Gondor, in drag.
Öjevind >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 19
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:57 am
Post subject: Re: please solve my confusion [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Trimboli wrote:
> "Bill O' Meally" wrote in message
>> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard"
>> who is not an Istar?
>
> How about Beorn calling Radigast "not bad, as wizards go," or
> something to that effect?
But Radigast is an Istar.
He didn't know Gandalf, so just how many
> Istari did he know?
Doesn't matter.
<snip>
I doubt anybody really knew who the
> Istari were.
That's not my point.
>
> The hobbits of the Shire knew Gandalf as "the wandering wizard,"
But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard" who is
not an Istar?
--
Bill
"Wise fool."
Gandalf _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!) >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 9
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:42 pm
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Since: Feb 19, 2004 Posts: 692
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:25 pm
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In message
"Bill O' Meally" spoke these staves:
>
> David Trimboli wrote:
>> "Bill O' Meally" wrote in message
>>>
>>> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a
>>> "wizard" who is not an Istar?
>>
>> How about Beorn calling Radigast "not bad, as wizards go," or
>> something to that effect?
>
> But Radigast is an Istar.
When Tolkien wrote the bit with Radagast the Istari weren't invented.
I'm not sure what exactly that means -- other than that anything in
the Hobbit is dubious as evidence either way
<snip>
>> The hobbits of the Shire knew Gandalf as "the wandering wizard,"
>
> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a
> "wizard" who is not an Istar?
We know that Tolkien uses the capitalization of the word 'ring' quite
deliberately (both for the 'One Ring' in particular, but also for the
plural being capitalized for Rings of Power exclusively). He also
used capitalization for racial plurals (Hobbits, Orcs, Dwarves etc.),
though the application of this in LotR was only made consistent with
the 2004/5 editions (at least in conscious intention by Hammond and
Scull).
With all that in mind, I insist that the difference in capitalization
is intentional and meaningful -- there is a difference between
'wizard' and 'Wizard', and I believe that whatever the specifics of
this difference 'Wizards' are a true subset of 'wizards' (meaning all
'Wizards' are 'wizards', but not all 'wizards' are 'Wizards').
So, the question becomes, what is this difference, if not the
difference between the Istari and magic-using Men (or, more
generally, other magic-users looking like Men)? Personally I don't
think that the Hobbits in general would make more distinction between
the wielders than they did for 'magic', where we know that they used
the same word for everything ('Gandalf' even associates this wizard
with the Elves, blurring the distinction between Elves and other
wielders of what the Hobbits would simply call 'magic').
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant,
because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of
injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed
and disaster averted.
- J.R.R. Tolkien, /The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien/ #192 >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Oct 29, 2008 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:50 pm
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"Bill O' Meally" wrote in message
> David Trimboli wrote:
>> "Bill O' Meally" wrote in message
>
>>> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard"
>>> who is not an Istar?
>>
>> How about Beorn calling Radigast "not bad, as wizards go," or
>> something to that effect?
>
> But Radigast is an Istar.
>
> He didn't know Gandalf, so just how many
>> Istari did he know?
>
> Doesn't matter.
>
> <snip>
>
> I doubt anybody really knew who the
>> Istari were.
>
> That's not my point.
>
>>
>> The hobbits of the Shire knew Gandalf as "the wandering wizard,"
>
> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard" who
> is
> not an Istar?
> --
The Witch-King was described as a great sorceror, if I recall correctly.
And he most assuredly was not one of the Istari.
Wasn't the mouth of Sauron kept alove by dark magics? I can't see Sauron
casting those spells to keep lieutenant alive, when all he'd have to do is
find a new one.
> Bill
> "Wise fool."
> Gandalf _The Two Towers_
> (The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!)
>
> >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 19
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:59 pm
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David Trimboli wrote:
> "Bill O' Meally" wrote:
>> But again, was there any instance where someone is called a "wizard"
>> who is
>> not an Istar?
>
> No.
I don't think so either, but I would have to re-read the books before making
such a definitive statement.
>What's your point?
My point should be clear from reading my other posts: Tolkien uses the word
'wizard' (capitalized or not) to specifically refer to one of the order of
the Istari, not to other practionioners of magical arts.
--
Bill
"Wise fool."
Gandalf _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!) >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 19
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:01 pm
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NY Teacher wrote:
> The Witch-King was described as a great sorceror, if I recall
> correctly. And he most assuredly was not one of the Istari.
My point exactly. Other practioners of 'magic' are referred to by names
other than 'wizard'. That term being specifically reserved for those who are
otherwise known as the Istari.
--
Bill
"Wise fool."
Gandalf _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!) >> Stay informed about: please solve my confusion |
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