The source of Ring-powers

eroot RemoveThis @swva.net wrote:
> chornedsnorkack RemoveThis @hushmail.com wrote:
> > Where did the powers of the Rings come from?
> >
> > As for the One Ring, its powers of invisibility, immortality and
> > domination of others seem to have been put there by Sauron, out of his
> > native power. Sauron of later Second Age, wielding the One, was more
> > powerful than the Sauron of early Second Age. But even then, he was by
> > no means all-powerful or invincible. Sauron using the One was
> > overpowered by simple military attack in the first War of Rings, again
> > by Ar-Pharazon and again in the War of Last Alliance.
> >
> > On the other hand, Sauron after the best part of his power was
> > deposited in One and then destroyed with One was diminished. His 3rd
> > Age body was a work of the One Ring, and automatically ceased to exist
> > when the One was destroyed, nor could he get a new one.
>
> This is not my take at all. I think he generated his 3rd-Age body by
> native power, because he was still en rapport with the Ring, but after
> the Ring was destroyed, the power was dispersed permanently, and his
> reduced spirit was no longer powerful enough to generate a body. On
> yeah, I also think that Sauron's body was immediately killed when Barad
> Dur collapsed like a mighty skyscraper, having been erected unnaturally
> tall and quickly by the power of the Ring. This is a lot different
> than the idea that Sauron's physical form was destroyed directly by the
> destruction of the Ring.
>
> > Maiar normally
> > cannot reform after being bodily killed - Sauron was an exception
> > exactly thanks to Ring.
> >
>
> I have always gotten the impression that Maiar in their full
> manifestation (not the purposefully-hobbled Wizards) could generate new
> bodies. At least that feels better to me, but I cannot "quote
> Scripture) against your interpretation. <8^)
>
The 1st Age Sauron could not. This was emphasized in the scene at Minas
Tirith when he was seized by Huan and threatened with bodily killing.
He was told that his spiri would be sent back naked to his master to
suffer his scorn forever.

It would seem that the ability to recover from bodily destruction is
something Sauron did not possess in 1st Age and acquired in 2nd Age
precisely through One Ring. Once the One Ring was destroyed, Sauron was
back at where he would have been if he had been slain in Minas Tirith -
game over except for eternally gnawing himself.

> > I suspect that if Sauron had been somehow vanquished before his Second
> > Age body was first destroyed in Numenor (and he lost his power to
> > assume a fair form)
>
> I imagine that this is a sort of "Dorian Gray" effect. We also see it
> in Morgoth: as he continues living a life of evil, his essential
> character becomes more stamped-onto his physical form for all to see.
> So everytime Sauron has to make a new body, he loses more of his
> ability to bullsh*t people into thinking he's anything other than evil.
> Also, it only took him a year to get a new body after Numenor, and he
> had been able to carry the Ring out of the depths by sheer spiritual
> force. The second time his body was destoyed, it took him hundreds of
> years to get a new body, and he sure didn't lift the Ring out of
> Isildur's pocket as the latter was walking away!
>
> > and forcibly deprived of One, but left alive in his
> > physical form, he would have suffered a major diminution of his powers,
> > but continued to be alive and immortal. Something like Saruman was
> > after Gandalf broke his staff.
>
> Maybe, but I bet he would have gotten the Ring back pretty soon; in
> Tolkien's world, Sauron is the supreme spirit of domination for evil.
>
Melkor was. And he did not actually come back in 2nd and 3rd Age.

> > Still evil, still with ability to lie
> > and manipulate, but much less dangerous than before making the One.
> >
> > Also I suspect that the original purpose of Three, Seven, Nine and the
> > lesser rings was to amplify the power of their makers.
>
> That was the bait; mental domination by Sauron was the hook.
>
> > The Elves of
> > Eregion put parts of their selves into their Rings.
>
> Maybe in some artistic sense, but, while more spiritual that humans,
> Elves are still not essentially spirits the way Maiar are.
>
But the ability of Elves to put themselves into their works and thereby
diminishing themselves is there. E. g. Feanor´s inability to create
the Silmarilli again.
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

chornedsnorkack.TakeThisOut@hushmail.com wrote:
> eroot.TakeThisOut@swva.net wrote:
> > chornedsnorkack.TakeThisOut@hushmail.com wrote:
> > > Where did the powers of the Rings come from?
> > >
> > > As for the One Ring, its powers of invisibility, immortality and
> > > domination of others seem to have been put there by Sauron, out of his
> > > native power. Sauron of later Second Age, wielding the One, was more
> > > powerful than the Sauron of early Second Age. But even then, he was by
> > > no means all-powerful or invincible. Sauron using the One was
> > > overpowered by simple military attack in the first War of Rings, again
> > > by Ar-Pharazon and again in the War of Last Alliance.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, Sauron after the best part of his power was
> > > deposited in One and then destroyed with One was diminished. His 3rd
> > > Age body was a work of the One Ring, and automatically ceased to exist
> > > when the One was destroyed, nor could he get a new one.
> >
> > This is not my take at all. I think he generated his 3rd-Age body by
> > native power, because he was still en rapport with the Ring, but after
> > the Ring was destroyed, the power was dispersed permanently, and his
> > reduced spirit was no longer powerful enough to generate a body. On
> > yeah, I also think that Sauron's body was immediately killed when Barad
> > Dur collapsed like a mighty skyscraper, having been erected unnaturally
> > tall and quickly by the power of the Ring. This is a lot different
> > than the idea that Sauron's physical form was destroyed directly by the
> > destruction of the Ring.
> >
> > > Maiar normally
> > > cannot reform after being bodily killed - Sauron was an exception
> > > exactly thanks to Ring.
> > >
> >
> > I have always gotten the impression that Maiar in their full
> > manifestation (not the purposefully-hobbled Wizards) could generate new
> > bodies. At least that feels better to me, but I cannot "quote
> > Scripture) against your interpretation. <8^)
> >
> The 1st Age Sauron could not. This was emphasized in the scene at Minas
> Tirith when he was seized by Huan and threatened with bodily killing.
> He was told that his spiri would be sent back naked to his master to
> suffer his scorn forever.
>

I don't think we can take the opinions of Luthien as gospel; whe is
trying to spook Sauron, and, being only half Maia and and not any sort
of necromancer, Luthien conceivably is no authority on who actually is
or isn't stuck without a body. Also, Morgoth, if sufficiently
disappointeded in Sauron's performance, very likely could _prevent_
him from regenerating.

> It would seem that the ability to recover from bodily destruction is
> something Sauron did not possess in 1st Age and acquired in 2nd Age
> precisely through One Ring. Once the One Ring was destroyed, Sauron was
> back at where he would have been if he had been slain in Minas Tirith -
> game over except for eternally gnawing himself.
>
> > > I suspect that if Sauron had been somehow vanquished before his Second
> > > Age body was first destroyed in Numenor (and he lost his power to
> > > assume a fair form)
> >
> > I imagine that this is a sort of "Dorian Gray" effect. We also see it
> > in Morgoth: as he continues living a life of evil, his essential
> > character becomes more stamped-onto his physical form for all to see.
> > So everytime Sauron has to make a new body, he loses more of his
> > ability to bullsh*t people into thinking he's anything other than evil.
> > Also, it only took him a year to get a new body after Numenor, and he
> > had been able to carry the Ring out of the depths by sheer spiritual
> > force. The second time his body was destoyed, it took him hundreds of
> > years to get a new body, and he sure didn't lift the Ring out of
> > Isildur's pocket as the latter was walking away!
> >
> > > and forcibly deprived of One, but left alive in his
> > > physical form, he would have suffered a major diminution of his powers,
> > > but continued to be alive and immortal. Something like Saruman was
> > > after Gandalf broke his staff.
> >
> > Maybe, but I bet he would have gotten the Ring back pretty soon; in
> > Tolkien's world, Sauron is the supreme spirit of domination for evil.
> >
> Melkor was. And he did not actually come back in 2nd and 3rd Age.

Melkor was more powerful, but Sauron was specifically an agent of
control and manipulation. Tolkien said that Melkor was more into
destruction, while Sauron was more into running things, which fits with
his being originally a follower of Aule.

>
> > > Still evil, still with ability to lie
> > > and manipulate, but much less dangerous than before making the One.
> > >
> > > Also I suspect that the original purpose of Three, Seven, Nine and the
> > > lesser rings was to amplify the power of their makers.
> >
> > That was the bait; mental domination by Sauron was the hook.
> >
> > > The Elves of
> > > Eregion put parts of their selves into their Rings.
> >
> > Maybe in some artistic sense, but, while more spiritual that humans,
> > Elves are still not essentially spirits the way Maiar are.
> >
> But the ability of Elves to put themselves into their works and thereby
> diminishing themselves is there. E. g. Feanor´s inability to create
> the Silmarilli again.

Agreed. I wish some of the biggies on rabt would weigh in on this.
Some might think it angels-and-pinheads, but I think it is important
to Tolkien's simulated theology.

Eric Root
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

In message <news:MPG.1ea4c37aab314a8698a3d6@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> 10 Apr 2006 20:41:23 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels.TakeThisOut@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>>
>> The powers for invisibility and 'immortality' were also present
>> in, at the very least, the Nine,
>
> Agreed -- and as far as we know, in the Seven as well.

Most likely -- how else would we know that Dwarves cannot be turned
into wraiths, or be given longer life?

>> and probably didn't originate in an infusion of native power
>> from Sauron, even if he was the source of these powers.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here.

Sorry.

I am making a distinction between the powers that are part of the basic
powers of a Ring -- and in particular the One Ring -- and those of the
One that can only be because Sauron externalised part of his native
power, or, in Gandalf's words, 'he let a great part of his own former
power pass into it'.

As I read it, the only purpose for Sauron to infuse the One Ring with
part of his native power was to turn it into the Master-ring, the One
Ring to rule them all.

> Are you saying Sauron did _not_ build those powers into the Rings?

I am saying that he didn't let any part of his native powers pass into
any Ring in order to provide them with these powers (invisibility and
'immortality').

> If so, why do you think that?
> What other source could have made those Rings confer invisibility
> and long life? The Elves were not interested in creating such
> things, as we know from the Three, so who would have given those
> powers to the Sixteen if not Sauron?

With respect to the invisibility, I agree entirely that it was built
into the Rings by Sauron, in the 'usual way' -- i.e. by the combination
of Art and Craft that also constitutes the Elvish magic.

I'm a bit more uncertain about the longevity -- it seems to follow as a
perversion of the chief power of all the Rings alike: that of staying
decay and change. The Elven motif here would be to allow the wearer to
experience Time as it were before the Sun and the Moon. I'm not sure
if there is more to the life-stretching effect of the Rings than that;
it would not surprise me if Sauron had taken a relatively harmless
power and perverted it into what we see in LotR.

> If you mean something else, then I apologize for misunderstanding
> you, and could you explain a bit please?

I hope the above is clearer

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:1144416875.120210.306620@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
> eroot.RemoveThis@swva.net enriched us with:
> >
> > chornedsnorkack.RemoveThis@hushmail.com wrote:
> >> Where did the powers of the Rings come from?
> >>
> >> As for the One Ring, its powers of invisibility, immortality and
> >> domination of others seem to have been put there by Sauron, out
> >> of his native power.
>
> The powers for invisibility and 'immortality' were also present in,
> at the very least, the Nine, and probably didn't originate in an
> infusion of native power from Sauron, even if he was the source of
> these powers.
>
> The invisibility probably came from Sauron, as is also suggested in
> the FAQ of the Rings[1]. With respect to the longevity (I prefer that
> to 'immortality') of the wearer, that might be seen as deriving from
> the primary power of all the Rings: to prevent or slow decay.[2]
> Whether the longevity, the stretching of life, was part of the
> original scheme (allowing the wearer to live, as it were, on a pre-
> Sun-and-Moon time scale), or a perversion introduced by Sauron of the
> power to staying the effects of Time, cannot, I think, be said with
> certainty.
>
> The power to dominate the other Rings of Power (and, in particular,
> their wearers) was the one thing that necessitated that Sauron infuse
> the One Ring with part of his own native power (or energy). The
> general power for domination is possibly an offshoot of this.
>
> >> Sauron of later Second Age, wielding the One, was more powerful
> >> than the Sauron of early Second Age.
>
> I am reminded of the statement in /Myths Transformed/ (part 5 of HoMe
> X, /Morgoth's Ring/) that, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the
> Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First."
>
> But of course there's a very important passage in letter #131 about
> Sauron's forging of the One:
>
> But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great
> part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very
> significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the
> One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually
> enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power
> existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not
> 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became
> possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could
> (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge
> Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done
> since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and
> usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had
> introduced into his situation in his effort (largely
> unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to
> establish a control over the minds and wills of his
> servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was
> actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be
> dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to
> vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a
> mere memory of malicious will. But that he never
> contemplated nor feared.
> [Letter #131, To Milton Waldman, probably late 1951]
>
> >> But even then, he was by no means all-powerful or invincible.
>
> The obvious answer would of course be to say that none but Eru is
> that. That, however, wouldn't, I think, address the point, which I
> think should rightfully be whether Sauron was invincible to the
> forces of Middle-earth.
>
> >> Sauron using the One was overpowered by simple military attack
> >> in the first War of Rings, again by Ar-Pharazon and again in
> >> the War of Last Alliance.
>
> The extent of his 'defeat' by Ar-Pharazôn is arguable, but he was
> still defeated by the Last Alliance.
>
> Part of the point made at the Council of Elrond, however, is that
> even though Sauron, at that point, not enhanced as he was when
> actually in possession of the One Ring, the forces of Men and Elves
> were then even more declined from the Last Alliance, so that they now
> had barely the force to withstand Sauron's initial attackes, and
> would not be able to withstand him, should he regain the One.
>
> It is an important point that though Sauron is not invincible as
> such, a military victory is still impossible without using the One
> Ring (subverting some of Sauron's allies and ensuring their fanatical
> loyalty).
>
> >> On the other hand, Sauron after the best part of his power was
> >> deposited in One and then destroyed with One was diminished. His
> >> 3rd Age body was a work of the One Ring, and automatically ceased
> >> to exist when the One was destroyed, nor could he get a new one.
> >
> > This is not my take at all. I think he generated his 3rd-Age body
> > by native power, because he was still en rapport with the Ring,
> > but after the Ring was destroyed, the power was dispersed
> > permanently, and his reduced spirit was no longer powerful enough
> > to generate a body.
>
> That's about how I see it as well. Personally I prefer to accept
> Tolkien's explanation in letter #200:
> After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a
> long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the
> Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up
> used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which
> might be called the 'will' or the effective link between
> the indestructible mind and being and the realization of
> its imagination).
> [Letter #200, From a letter to Major R. Bowen, June 1957]
>
> I don't think the power, or energy, that Sauron had infused in the
> One Ring could be bound up in a new body, since he had already
> externalised that, binding it to the One Ring, but he could
> nevertheless draw upon it. I don't think the new body would be like
> Barad-dûr, which was founded with the power of the Ring; the creation
> of the new body would have to use up some of the inherent energy that
> was not already placed outside Sauron, though doing so probably
> required that he had access to the power in the One Ring (I suppose
> that, to some extent, that could be seen as the body being made with
> [the aid of] that power).
>
> > On yeah, I also think that Sauron's body was immediately killed
> > when Barad Dur collapsed like a mighty skyscraper, having been
> > erected unnaturally tall and quickly by the power of the Ring.
> > This is a lot different than the idea that Sauron's physical
> > form was destroyed directly by the destruction of the Ring.
>
> It is, yes.
>
> I can't say I've given that particular question much thought, but
> this would, I think, be the logical consequence of my statements
> above about the construction of the body.
>
> The counter-argument would be to cite Gandalf's opinion:
>
> If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be
> so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he
> will lose the best part of the strength that was native to
> him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with
> that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever,
> becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the
> shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape.
> [LotR V,9 'The Last Debate']
>
Indeed.

Gandalf did not know whether Sauron, at the moment of the destruction
of One, would be present in the Dark Tower and killed in its collapse,
or out in the open. It was strongly implied that had Gollum not fallen
into the Fire with the Ring soon, Sauron in his physical form would
have travelled in a hurry to Mount Doom with the purpose of fighting
anyone bearing the One.

The Eight were travelling on their winged steeds when the One was
destroyed.

What happened to the physical and magical bodies of Ringwraiths when
the One was destroyed and the Nine became useless trinkets? Did the
Wraiths continue to live and age as Men should? Or did they turn into
normal human corpses?

Sauron as a Maia was not liable to aging. Therefore, is there any
reason Gandalf knew of that would have prevented Sauron from continuing
to occupy his physical body after the One was destroyed?

> >> Maiar normally cannot reform after being bodily killed - Sauron
> >> was an exception exactly thanks to Ring.
> >
> > I have always gotten the impression that Maiar in their full
> > manifestation (not the purposefully-hobbled Wizards) could
> > generate new bodies. At least that feels better to me, but I
> > cannot "quote Scripture) against your interpretation. <8^)
>
> I would quote the passage from letter #200, and perhaps even more the
> last sentence in that paragraph, 'The impossibility of re-building
> after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear
> "mythologically" in the present book.'
>
> My impression has always been that Sauron's inability to rebuild a
> new body at the end of the Third Age was the exception to the rule,
> and due to the dimishment of his Fëa that he had brought about
> himself.
>
Recall how Sauron in the First Age was told what would happen if he
were killed bodily. He obviously believed it, too.

> I don't recall if it is stated explicitly anywhere whether Saruman
> would be able to construct a new body, but my impression from the
> book (though without, I think, any actual evidence) is that he can't.
> Saruman, however, was robbed of his powers (or most of them) when he
> was cast out of the Order, so that would appear to be another special
> case.
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Also I suspect that the original purpose of Three, Seven, Nine
> >> and the lesser rings was to amplify the power of their makers.
>
> They probably did possess that power, but it was not their primary
> purpose nor their chief power. That was to stay the effects of time.
>
> In order to do so, all the Rings alike probably gave their wearer
> power according to his stature, just as they could also be used for
> other purposes, though they weren't made for that.
>
> > That was the bait; mental domination by Sauron was the hook.
>
> As Sauron had it
>
> >> The Elves of Eregion put parts of their selves into their Rings.
> >
> > Maybe in some artistic sense, but, while more spiritual that
> > humans, Elves are still not essentially spirits the way Maiar are.
>
> Yes. It is important, I think, to keep in mind how Tolkien described
> Elvish magic:
> Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human
> limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete
> (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its
> object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and
> tyrannous re-forming of Creation.
> [Letter #131, To Milton Waldman, probably late 1951]
>
> This applies, IMO, more than anything to their artefacts -- whether
> rope and robes or Palantíri, Rings of Power or even Silmarils.
>
>
But humans are not subject to limitations like inability of Feanor to
make Silmarils more than once.
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

chornedsnorkack RemoveThis @hushmail.com wrote:
> eroot RemoveThis @swva.net wrote:
> > chornedsnorkack RemoveThis @hushmail.com wrote:
> > > Where did the powers of the Rings come from?
> > >
> > > As for the One Ring, its powers of invisibility, immortality and
> > > domination of others seem to have been put there by Sauron, out of his
> > > native power. Sauron of later Second Age, wielding the One, was more
> > > powerful than the Sauron of early Second Age. But even then, he was by
> > > no means all-powerful or invincible. Sauron using the One was
> > > overpowered by simple military attack in the first War of Rings, again
> > > by Ar-Pharazon and again in the War of Last Alliance.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, Sauron after the best part of his power was
> > > deposited in One and then destroyed with One was diminished. His 3rd
> > > Age body was a work of the One Ring, and automatically ceased to exist
> > > when the One was destroyed, nor could he get a new one.
> >
> > This is not my take at all. I think he generated his 3rd-Age body by
> > native power, because he was still en rapport with the Ring, but after
> > the Ring was destroyed, the power was dispersed permanently, and his
> > reduced spirit was no longer powerful enough to generate a body. On
> > yeah, I also think that Sauron's body was immediately killed when Barad
> > Dur collapsed like a mighty skyscraper, having been erected unnaturally
> > tall and quickly by the power of the Ring. This is a lot different
> > than the idea that Sauron's physical form was destroyed directly by the
> > destruction of the Ring.
> >
> > > Maiar normally
> > > cannot reform after being bodily killed - Sauron was an exception
> > > exactly thanks to Ring.
> > >
> >
> > I have always gotten the impression that Maiar in their full
> > manifestation (not the purposefully-hobbled Wizards) could generate new
> > bodies. At least that feels better to me, but I cannot "quote
> > Scripture) against your interpretation. <8^)
> >
> The 1st Age Sauron could not.

In several places, Tolkien mentions that the Ainur put on bodies like
clothing. Thus, I don't think that if Huan had killed Sauron at The
Isle of Werewolves, he would have been _unable_ to get a new body, but
that he would be humiliated by having to show up back at Angband
without a body. It would be like being stripped of clothes and having
to report back to his boss naked, but _not_ the case that he couldn't
eventually "get dressed" again.

(snip)

Eric Root
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

chornedsnorkack.DeleteThis@hushmail.com wrote:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>

(snip)

>
> The Eight were travelling on their winged steeds when the One was
> destroyed.
>
> What happened to the physical and magical bodies of Ringwraiths when
> the One was destroyed and the Nine became useless trinkets? Did the
> Wraiths continue to live and age as Men should? Or did they turn into
> normal human corpses?
>

They were extinguished almost instantly. Their existence _was_
directly based on the power of the RIng.

> Sauron as a Maia was not liable to aging. Therefore, is there any
> reason Gandalf knew of that would have prevented Sauron from continuing
> to occupy his physical body after the One was destroyed?

Probably not; he was not an expert on the powers of the Ring. He was
very wise, but he could only conjecture.

>
> > >> Maiar normally cannot reform after being bodily killed - Sauron
> > >> was an exception exactly thanks to Ring.
> > >
> > > I have always gotten the impression that Maiar in their full
> > > manifestation (not the purposefully-hobbled Wizards) could
> > > generate new bodies. At least that feels better to me, but I
> > > cannot "quote Scripture) against your interpretation. <8^)
> >
> > I would quote the passage from letter #200, and perhaps even more the
> > last sentence in that paragraph, 'The impossibility of re-building
> > after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear
> > "mythologically" in the present book.'

Not the same as the proposition that the destruction of the Ring would
directly kill him.

> >
> > My impression has always been that Sauron's inability to rebuild a
> > new body at the end of the Third Age was the exception to the rule,
> > and due to the dimishment of his Fëa that he had brought about
> > himself.
> >
> Recall how Sauron in the First Age was told what would happen if he
> were killed bodily. He obviously believed it, too.
>

Maybe. I think he was just chicken, a certain underlying cowardice
being a side effect of choising evil.

> > I don't recall if it is stated explicitly anywhere whether Saruman
> > would be able to construct a new body, but my impression from the
> > book (though without, I think, any actual evidence) is that he can't.
> > Saruman, however, was robbed of his powers (or most of them) when he
> > was cast out of the Order, so that would appear to be another special
> > case.

Plus, the Wizard-bodies were deliberately limited compared to the
bodies Maiar could generate on their own. However, the instance of
Balrogs not regenerating is a datum on your side of the argument.

> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >> Also I suspect that the original purpose of Three, Seven, Nine
> > >> and the lesser rings was to amplify the power of their makers.
> >
> > They probably did possess that power, but it was not their primary
> > purpose nor their chief power. That was to stay the effects of time.
> >
> > In order to do so, all the Rings alike probably gave their wearer
> > power according to his stature, just as they could also be used for
> > other purposes, though they weren't made for that.
> >
> > > That was the bait; mental domination by Sauron was the hook.
> >
> > As Sauron had it
> >
> > >> The Elves of Eregion put parts of their selves into their Rings.
> > >
> > > Maybe in some artistic sense, but, while more spiritual that
> > > humans, Elves are still not essentially spirits the way Maiar are.
> >
> > Yes. It is important, I think, to keep in mind how Tolkien described
> > Elvish magic:
> > Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human
> > limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete
> > (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its
> > object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and
> > tyrannous re-forming of Creation.
> > [Letter #131, To Milton Waldman, probably late 1951]
> >
> > This applies, IMO, more than anything to their artefacts -- whether
> > rope and robes or Palantíri, Rings of Power or even Silmarils.
> >

That makes sense.

> >
> But humans are not subject to limitations like inability of Feanor to
> make Silmarils more than once.

Perhaps.

Eric Root
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

In message
<news:1145289004.568446.76550@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
chornedsnorkack.TakeThisOut@hushmail.com enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>> In message
>> <news:1144416875.120210.306620@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
>> eroot.TakeThisOut@swva.net enriched us with:
>>>
>>> chornedsnorkack.TakeThisOut@hushmail.com wrote:
>>>> Where did the powers of the Rings come from?
>>>>

Please snip unnecessary history . . .

<snip>

>>> On yeah, I also think that Sauron's body was immediately killed
>>> when Barad Dur collapsed like a mighty skyscraper,
[...]
>>
>> The counter-argument would be to cite Gandalf's opinion:
>>
[...]
[Sauron, upon the destruction of the One Ring]
>> will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of
>> malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot
>> again grow or take shape.
>> [LotR V,9 'The Last Debate']
>
> Indeed.

But please note that 'made or begun' with the power that Sauron let
pass into the One Ring is still a very far cry from the position you
advanced that '[Sauron's] 3rd Age body was a work of the One Ring'
(Message-ID: <1144255262.286687.42330.TakeThisOut@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>).
Sauron's Third Age body was no different from his bodies in the First
or Second Ages, except that he had become bound to it; he needed a
significant part of his native power to create any body, and, after his
construction of the One Ring, that would by necessity include the power
he had infused into the One Ring. There is no reason to assume that the
body is made /only/ with the power of the Ring, nor that Sauron would
have been unable to construct a new body without the Ring. The latter
would even be contradicted by the information I quoted from letter #131
that Sauron could still access, or use, the power he had himself poured
into the Ring, but not the additional powers of the One. Sauron, when
not wearing the Ring, was, in terms of power, exactly equal to Sauron
not having made the One Ring.

> Gandalf did not know whether Sauron, at the moment of the
> destruction of One, would be present in the Dark Tower and killed
> in its collapse, or out in the open.

Unless he was given a specific reason to leave Barad-dûr, it would be
unlikely in the extreme that he would not be there.

[...]
> Sauron in his physical form would have travelled in a hurry
> to Mount Doom with the purpose of fighting anyone bearing
> the One.

In which case the Ring could not have been destroyed, and the question
is void.

> The Eight were travelling on their winged steeds when the One was
> destroyed.
[...]

They were both mortals and incarnates -- you cannot compare the
relation between their bodies (shifted, apparently, to 'the other
side' -- the world of the Ringwraiths) and their spirits to the
corresponding relation between Sauron's. Sauron, though bound to his
body in a state that would 'approach the state of "incarnation"', was
/not/ incarnate, nor mortal.

> Sauron as a Maia was not liable to aging. Therefore, is there any
> reason Gandalf knew of that would have prevented Sauron from
> continuing to occupy his physical body after the One was
> destroyed?

You're going about it the wrong way. You ask whether there is evidence
that Sauron's embodiment was /not different/ from normal Ainu self-
arrayal. It is evident that you claim it was much different, and the
appropriate way is to ask for evidence of that.

Gandalf didn't /know/, but his guesses were usually quite close, so I
am inclined to accept that it was enough that Sauron had to use the
power that he had bound up in the One Ring in the construction of his
new bodies (late Second Age and Third Age) for those bodies to be tied
to the continued existence of that power. All that is saying is that he
made himself vulnerable in a special way by making the One Ring -- had
he not made that Ring, he could have made himself new bodies without
risking their destruction through any remote act (such as the
destruction of the Ring).

>> My impression has always been that Sauron's inability to rebuild
>> a new body at the end of the Third Age was the exception to the
>> rule, and due to the dimishment of his Fëa that he had brought
>> about himself.
>
> Recall how Sauron in the First Age was told what would happen if
> he were killed bodily. He obviously believed it, too.

Eric has already answered this in another post. All it says is that he
couldn't instantly construct a new body -- it would take time. Given
the general information about the self-arrayal of Ainur, that is the
only possible interpretation of that passage.

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you
haven't understood it yet.
- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:1145289004.568446.76550@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>
> chornedsnorkack DeleteThis @hushmail.com enriched us with:
> >
> > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> >> In message
> >> <news:1144416875.120210.306620@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
> >> eroot DeleteThis @swva.net enriched us with:
> >>>
> >>> chornedsnorkack DeleteThis @hushmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Where did the powers of the Rings come from?
> >>>>
>
> Please snip unnecessary history . . .
>
> <snip>
>
> >>> On yeah, I also think that Sauron's body was immediately killed
> >>> when Barad Dur collapsed like a mighty skyscraper,
> [...]
> >>
> >> The counter-argument would be to cite Gandalf's opinion:
> >>
> [...]
> [Sauron, upon the destruction of the One Ring]
> >> will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of
> >> malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot
> >> again grow or take shape.
> >> [LotR V,9 'The Last Debate']
> >
> > Indeed.
>
> > Gandalf did not know whether Sauron, at the moment of the
> > destruction of One, would be present in the Dark Tower and killed
> > in its collapse, or out in the open.
>
> Unless he was given a specific reason to leave Barad-dûr, it would be
> unlikely in the extreme that he would not be there.
>
> [...]
> > Sauron in his physical form would have travelled in a hurry
> > to Mount Doom with the purpose of fighting anyone bearing
> > the One.
>
> In which case the Ring could not have been destroyed, and the question
> is void.
>
Not necessarily. The Ringwraiths set out from their places of
deployment - above the battlefield of Morannon - for Mount Doom, but
the Ring was destroyed before they arrived. It would be quite plausible
if Sauron also left the Tower and was in open road when the Ring was
destroyed.

> > The Eight were travelling on their winged steeds when the One was
> > destroyed.
> [...]
>
> They were both mortals and incarnates -- you cannot compare the
> relation between their bodies (shifted, apparently, to 'the other
> side' -- the world of the Ringwraiths) and their spirits to the
> corresponding relation between Sauron's. Sauron, though bound to his
> body in a state that would 'approach the state of "incarnation"', was
> /not/ incarnate, nor mortal.
>
> > Sauron as a Maia was not liable to aging. Therefore, is there any
> > reason Gandalf knew of that would have prevented Sauron from
> > continuing to occupy his physical body after the One was
> > destroyed?
>
> You're going about it the wrong way. You ask whether there is evidence
> that Sauron's embodiment was /not different/ from normal Ainu self-
> arrayal. It is evident that you claim it was much different, and the
> appropriate way is to ask for evidence of that.
>
> Gandalf didn't /know/, but his guesses were usually quite close, so I
> am inclined to accept that it was enough that Sauron had to use the
> power that he had bound up in the One Ring in the construction of his
> new bodies (late Second Age and Third Age) for those bodies to be tied
> to the continued existence of that power. All that is saying is that he
> made himself vulnerable in a special way by making the One Ring -- had
> he not made that Ring, he could have made himself new bodies without
> risking their destruction through any remote act (such as the
> destruction of the Ring).
>
> >> My impression has always been that Sauron's inability to rebuild
> >> a new body at the end of the Third Age was the exception to the
> >> rule, and due to the dimishment of his Fëa that he had brought
> >> about himself.
> >
> > Recall how Sauron in the First Age was told what would happen if
> > he were killed bodily. He obviously believed it, too.
>
> Eric has already answered this in another post. All it says is that he
> couldn't instantly construct a new body -- it would take time. Given
> the general information about the self-arrayal of Ainur, that is the
> only possible interpretation of that passage.
>
I think it was implied that loss of native power when the Ainur are
violently deprived of a body tends to weaken them irreversibly.
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

In message
<news:1145301327.928892.307180@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
eroot DeleteThis @swva.net enriched us with:
>
> chornedsnorkack DeleteThis @hushmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>>

<snip>

>>> It is important, I think, to keep in mind how Tolkien
>>> described Elvish magic:
>>> Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human
>>> limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete
>>> (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its
>>> object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and
>>> tyrannous re-forming of Creation.
>>> [Letter #131, To Milton Waldman, probably late 1951]
>>>
>>> This applies, IMO, more than anything to their artefacts --
>>> whether rope and robes or Palantíri, Rings of Power or even
>>> Silmarils.
>>>
>
> That makes sense.

Thanks

When I read about the Noldor learning from Melkor, or the Elven
Ringsmiths of Eregion learning from Sauron/Annatar, I never got the
impression that they were learning spells etc. What they were learning
were the skills of the craftsman -- the skill-levels necessary to
achieve the highest levels of Art.

>> But humans are not subject to limitations like inability of
>> Feanor to make Silmarils more than once.
>
> Perhaps.

Well, they are subject to the limitation of not being able to make such
things even once . . .

Men cannot 'naturally' do magic of any kind -- neither in the Elven
sense (the Art-thing) or the black arts of the Enemy. In all cases Men
needed tutors from one of the naturally magic-using races.

The Numenóreans did learn magic through their contact with Elves and
general ennoblement, and other Men learned it from Sauron, but it
didn't come natural to Men, and it could never have been more than a
very small minority (small enough, in any case, for Tolkien to forget
them at one point -- letter #155). Some of the works of the Dúnedain
seems to approach the Elven Art -- Orthanc and the outer walls of Minas
Anor (later Tirith) seems to be /almost/ magical, as do e.g. the
Argonath.

And the idea that 'For the less even as for the greater there is some
deed that he may accomplish but once only' would, I am sure, apply
equally to human artisans and artists -- to each is given, at most, one
work of perfection and that cannot be repeated.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your
feeling of what reality "ought to be".
- Richard Feynman
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

In message
<news:1145376110.439688.228160@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
chornedsnorkack RemoveThis @hushmail.com enriched us with:
>

<snip>

Please delete the text that is not strictly relevant in order to
provide a context for your comments -- having to wade through more than
a hundred lines with only seven lines added makes it harder to read and
less inviting for others.

[Sauron's possible fates after the battle against Huan]

> I think it was implied that loss of native power when the Ainur
> are violently deprived of a body tends to weaken them
> irreversibly.

That is implied elsewhere, yes (the passage I've quoted from letter
#200 is actually rather explicit about it). It is not entirely clear,
IMO, whether this applied in all cases or only when the Ainu was bound
to the body, though I suspect that it might apply in all cases,
although the effect would possibly be exacerbated for an Ainu who had
become bound to the body. It is also stated that they would have to
rebuild that body, implying that it was common for an Ainu to be able
to rebuild their body after a death, so the weakening, or loss of
inherent energy, is obviously not sufficient to render any but the
already weakest Ainur unable to rebuild a body (i.e. those who had
little more power than that needed to build a body in the first place).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
 >> Stay informed about: The source of Ring-powers 

<chornedsnorkack.TakeThisOut@hushmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1145375802.355992.93660@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

> Raven wrote:

> > As for Sauron merely being afraid of showing himself temporarily
> > naked before his master, surely he must also have been afraid of
> > reporting that he had lost this invaluable stronghold. If he could
> > have sacrificed his body temporarily but retained mastery of the
> > tower, surely that would have been a less perilous thing to report
> > to such an unforgiving lord. Sauron must have foreseen that
> > remaining alive must have been at least as valuable to Morgoth
> > as retaining mastery of Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

> But we are not told that Sauron reported to Melkor after losing
> Tol-i-Gaurhoth. We are told that he turned into a bat and flew right to
> Dorthonion.

> So, it does sound a plausible argument that Sauron could have deserted
> Morgoth - his remaining alive was valuable to himself.

This is a good point. I don't remember reading anything about what
Sauron did between his defeat by Huan and the War of Wrath. He dwelt in
Dorthonion, but did he do so as an outlaw himself and a rebel against his
master because of fear, or in understanding with Morgoth, still obeying his
commands? Was his stay in Dorthonion an exile, in penalty for his defeat at
Tol-in-Gaurhoth? Did he later return to Angband, perhaps when he had
recovered his strength? We do know that Huan slew Draugluin. After this,
although Beren and Lúthien went the speediest way to Angband, he disguised
as Draugluin, when they approached the gates Draugluin's death was already
long known to Carcharoth. Who sent the message? Servants of Sauron's
escaping from Tol-in-Gaurhoth? Sauron apparently did not go to Angband
himself, but did he order the message to be sent?

Speaking of Carcharoth, is it coincidence that it resembles somewhat the
name Carcharodon Carcharias, the systematic name for the Great White Shark?


Kruk.
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