The source of Ring-powers

Stan Brown wrote:
>
> 10 Apr 2006 20:41:23 GMT from Troels Forchhammer:

> > and probably didn't originate in an
> > infusion of native power from Sauron, even if he was the source of
> > these powers.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying Sauron did _not_
> build those powers into the Rings? If so, why do you think that? What
> other source could have made those Rings confer invisibility and long
> life? The Elves were not interested in creating such things, as we
> know from the Three, so who would have given those powers to the
> Sixteen if not Sauron?

I thought it was obvious from the source material (and in your FAQ as well)
that invisibility was a side-effect of being used by a mortal who did not
already exist in both worlds at once, and one of insufficient stature to
control the "Ring On" effect. I.e. a physical side-effect, like the powers
of longevity which, I agree with Troels, are another unintended side-effect
of the Rings' chief power to preserve things.

If this were not true, then the whole story would make no sense.
Gandalf knew Bilbo had a ring of invisibility, after all. If invisibility
were a product of Sauronian retro-fitting, it would HAVE to be one of the
Great Rings, or one of the lesser rings in Sauron's posession (i.e. from
Mordor -- and we have no indication that Sauron bothered with the lesser
rings as they were but trifles to the Elves themselves.) If invisibility
were purely Sauronian (i.e. not an intrinsic by-product of the Ring's
intended purpose -- when used by mortals, which was not intended) then
Gandalf would be guilty of "CIA-level" blindness and lack of foresight.

It is the forcible "wraithification effect" -- and the sheer desire to
acquire and to use the rings for power and control, or to amass gold
("magic" in the Tolkienian sense, as opposed to art) that are the only
real Sauronian (after the fact) modifications I can see.

We must keep in mind that his knowledge was required to develop the whole
concept, however, so the idea of preserving works of "art" (or "white magic"
UNCHANGING FOREVER, was in itself a Sauronian "trojan horse" of some sort,
allowing him to dominate the works of the Elves, not just their wills,
thru the Morgoth Element, somehow.

Ber
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In message <news:4449A335.2E1F84@erols.com>
Robinsons <wrob.TakeThisOut@erols.com> enriched us with:
>
> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> 10 Apr 2006 20:41:23 GMT from Troels Forchhammer:
>>>

[The powers of invisibility and longevity]

> I thought it was obvious from the source material (and in your FAQ
> as well) that invisibility was a side-effect of being used by a
> mortal who did not already exist in both worlds at once,

I've never been comfortable with the usual explanations for these
things, I'm afraid.

There is solid evidence that the invisibility is tied to the
wraithifying effect, and thus the strong suggestion that immunity
against being 'turned to shadows' implies immunity also against being
made invisible (I agree with Stan's 'Most likely not' in the Rings
FAQ). I do take that to indicate that we should consider the Dwarves
immune to both effects, but this, I think, is due to the resistance
that was built into them by Aulë rather than anything to do with the
eventual fate of their Fëar.

Having come to that conclusion, I would be extremely uncomfortable
having to make up another form of immunity for the same thing -- that
wouldn't fit my ideas of how these things hang together.

At the same time, I frankly don't see any good arguments for why the
Elves should be immune to the invisibility effect. We even have the
specific information from Tolkien that the Three did not confer
invisibility, which, to me, implies that this, and nothing else, is the
explanation of why the keepers of the Three were not invisible.

The argument that existing in both worlds at the same time should
convey immunity to being shifted completely into one of these does also
appear to me to be failing logically. Furthermore this argument, as the
characteristic is explained by Gandalf, would apply only to those
Noldor who had been living in Aman, which would actually exclude all
but Galadriel of the Elven keepers of the Three (in the Third Age).

As for the direct 'source' of the invisibility, it is beyond doubt that
this power came directly from Sauron:

And finally they had other powers, more directly derived
from Sauron ([...]): such as rendering invisible the
material body, and making things of the invisible world
visible.
[Letter #131, To Milton Waldman, late 1951?]

The big question would be /when/ he put this power into the Rings --
and which Rings he did it to (didn't he also get hold of at least some
of the lesser rings, 'only essays in the craft before it was full-
grown', and might he have installed into some of these the power of
invisibility?

But recall also that Gandalf cites that it was 'clear from the first'
that Gollum had come by a Great Ring (LotR I,2 'The Shadow of the
Past'), and 'from the first' all he knew about the Ring was that it
conferred invisibility. But elsewhere in the chapter he relates of his
interrogation of Gollum,
Many lives of his small kind. The power of the ring had
lengthened his years far beyond their span; but that power
only the Great Rings wield.
This, obviously, implies that it was the longevity of the wearer that
proved the Ring to be one of the Great.

The evidence is not, I think, entirely consistent -- it is unclear
whether the invisibility was restricted to the seventeen Great Rings
that Sauron had touched. The way that I have found the easiest in order
to come to terms with the evidence is to assume that Gandalf guessed
already by the fact that the Ring conferred invisibility that it was
one of the Great Rings, but as he was not as strong in Ring-lore as
e.g. Saruman, he needed the corroborating evidence of Gollum's
longevity to be completely sure.

> and one of insufficient stature to control the "Ring On" effect.

I'd think that that would require someone who had actually mastered the
Ring (I suppose that all the Great Rings worked, to some extent, in the
same way, that a wearer would have to learn to 'master' the Ring).

> I.e. a physical side-effect, like the powers of longevity which,
> I agree with Troels, are another unintended side-effect of the
> Rings' chief power to preserve things.

Well, let me take it one step further and say that I think the
wraithification relies on a combination of the invisibility effect and
the longevity effect and possibly also on the domination/ corruption by
Sauron.

<snip>

> If invisibility were purely Sauronian (i.e. not an intrinsic
> by-product of the Ring's intended purpose -- when used by
> mortals, which was not intended) then Gandalf would be guilty
> of "CIA-level" blindness and lack of foresight.

Well, the invisibility did come directly from Sauron -- or at least
'more directly derived from Sauron' than the chief power (of
preservation) and the power to enhance 'the natural powers of a
possessor'.

But I don't agree that Gandalf is guilty of blindness. Gandalf was not
an expert of Ring-lore: we know how he repeatedly queried Saruman on
the subject precisely because of his misgivings about Bilbo's Ring, and
he adviced Bilbo not to use it, and Gollum, from whom Bilbo had got the
Ring, had not become a wraith, so Gandalf had reasons to believe that
he still had time.

> It is the forcible "wraithification effect" -- and the sheer
> desire to acquire and to use the rings for power and control, or
> to amass gold ("magic" in the Tolkienian sense, as opposed to art)
> that are the only real Sauronian (after the fact) modifications I
> can see.

The passage in question is
And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the
more easily since he had a part in their making, and they
were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that
used them.
[Silm V 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age']

This does, indeed, not say that the power to confer invisibility was
put into the Rings at this point (after Sauron had captured them from
the Elves), but if one wishes to claim that Sauron had put that power
in the Rings from the beginning, then we get the problem of either
explaining how the Elves didn't become suspicious or why they took that
part of the design out when they made the Three. Since we know that
this power stemmed 'more directly from Sauron' and also that it was not
in the Rings that he had never touched, it is natural to say that the
Rings recieved this power directly from Sauron's hand, and since it is
clearly a part of the wraithification ('if he often uses the Ring to
make himself invisible, he /fades/: [...]'), I think it fits better
with the evidence in general to assume that this power was conveyed to
the Rings after Sauron had captured them from the Elves, as part of the
perversion mentioned in the Silm.

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Truth in science can be defined as the working hypothesis
best suited to open the way to the next, better one.
- Konrad Lorenz
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:4449A335.2E1F84@erols.com>
> Robinsons <wrob RemoveThis @erols.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > Stan Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> 10 Apr 2006 20:41:23 GMT from Troels Forchhammer:
> >>>
>
> [The powers of invisibility and longevity]
>
> > I thought it was obvious from the source material (and in your FAQ
> > as well) that invisibility was a side-effect of being used by a
> > mortal who did not already exist in both worlds at once,
>
> I've never been comfortable with the usual explanations for these
> things, I'm afraid.
>
> There is solid evidence that the invisibility is tied to the
> wraithifying effect, and thus the strong suggestion that immunity
> against being 'turned to shadows' implies immunity also against being
> made invisible (I agree with Stan's 'Most likely not' in the Rings
> FAQ). I do take that to indicate that we should consider the Dwarves
> immune to both effects, but this, I think, is due to the resistance
> that was built into them by Aulë rather than anything to do with the
> eventual fate of their Fëar.
>
> Having come to that conclusion, I would be extremely uncomfortable
> having to make up another form of immunity for the same thing -- that
> wouldn't fit my ideas of how these things hang together.
>
Is it inconsistent with evidence to assume that the Dwarves did become
invisible, but were immune to wrathification, because they persisted in
returning to visibility whenever they took off their Rings, unlike Men
who eventually became permanently invisible?


> > It is the forcible "wraithification effect" -- and the sheer
> > desire to acquire and to use the rings for power and control, or
> > to amass gold ("magic" in the Tolkienian sense, as opposed to art)
> > that are the only real Sauronian (after the fact) modifications I
> > can see.
>
> The passage in question is
> And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the
> more easily since he had a part in their making, and they
> were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that
> used them.
> [Silm V 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age']
>
> This does, indeed, not say that the power to confer invisibility was
> put into the Rings at this point (after Sauron had captured them from
> the Elves), but if one wishes to claim that Sauron had put that power
> in the Rings from the beginning, then we get the problem of either
> explaining how the Elves didn't become suspicious or why they took that
> part of the design out when they made the Three.

Celebrimbor was an Elf of Nargothrond. His history and background was
never a secret for general public, incl. Annatar.

The Noldor of Nargothrond liked hiding. Nargothrond, after the advice
of Celegorm against the dangers of open war as had been practiced
before 456 and still was practiced by Fingon and Maedhros, never went
to open war until the acts of Turin, instead relying on hiding in
forests and killing their enemies unseen. And Celebrimbor preferred to
stay in Nargothrond and go along with their policy of hiding instead of
returning to Maedhros with his father.

It would seem that, especially in respect to Nine, Celebrimbor might
have approved a magical device that allows the wearer to become
actually invisible in plain sight.

Now, the Elves of Nargothrond also were the ones to ignore the advice
of Feanor to leave their treasures behind, and insist on carrying a lot
of treasure across the ice. Therefore, a concern with increasing
one´s treasures would be something Celebrimbor might use his Seven
Rings for.

But it would also be in character for Celebrimbor to value healing and
understanding - the principal goals of the Three - above the more
mundane and base though valuable abilities of turning invisible,
scaring and dominating the wills of one´s enemies or amassing treasure.
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In rec.arts.books.tolkien chornedsnorkack.RemoveThis@hushmail.com wrote:

> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> The passage in question is
>> And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the
>> more easily since he had a part in their making, and they
>> were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that
>> used them.
>> [Silm V 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age']
>>
>> This does, indeed, not say that the power to confer invisibility was
>> put into the Rings at this point (after Sauron had captured them from
>> the Elves), but if one wishes to claim that Sauron had put that power
>> in the Rings from the beginning, then we get the problem of either
>> explaining how the Elves didn't become suspicious or why they took that
>> part of the design out when they made the Three.

> Celebrimbor was an Elf of Nargothrond. His history and background was
> never a secret for general public, incl. Annatar.

Celebrimbor was the grandson of Feanor. I think that is far
more telling than the fact that he lived in Nargothrond for awhile.

Stephen
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:1145894413.264322.188170@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> chornedsnorkack DeleteThis @hushmail.com enriched us with:
> >
> > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> >>
> >> In message <news:4449A335.2E1F84@erols.com>
> >> Robinsons <wrob DeleteThis @erols.com> enriched us with:
> >>>
> >>> Stan Brown wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> 10 Apr 2006 20:41:23 GMT from Troels Forchhammer:
> >>>>>
>

>
> > Celebrimbor was an Elf of Nargothrond.
>
> Not really. He was a grand-son of Fëanor, who lived for a long period
> in Nargothrond, before and after he 'repudiated the deeds of his
> father'.
>

>
> > It would seem that, especially in respect to Nine,
>
> There is no reason to believe that there was any difference between
> the Seven and the Nine. The dichotomy of the Sixteen was created only
> after Sauron distributed them.
>
It is mentioned that Sauron got the Nine immediately as he seized
Eregion, and the Six only after torturing Celebrimbor to reveal where
they were hid. This shows Celebrimbor regarded Nine as different from
Seven.

> > Now, the Elves of Nargothrond also were the ones to ignore the
> > advice of Feanor to leave their treasures behind,
>
> Which has, of course, nothing whatsoever to do with Celebrimbor who
> crossed in the ships with his father, Curufin.
>
But Celebrimbor did not follow the actions, and priorities, of his
father after the events in Nargothrond. If indeed he crossed. There is
no mention of Celebrimbor (or any other grandson of Feanor) taking his
Oath.
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In message
<news:1145894413.264322.188170@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
chornedsnorkack RemoveThis @hushmail.com enriched us with:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> In message <news:4449A335.2E1F84@erols.com>
>> Robinsons <wrob RemoveThis @erols.com> enriched us with:
>>>
>>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 10 Apr 2006 20:41:23 GMT from Troels Forchhammer:
>>>>>

<snip>

> Is it inconsistent with evidence to assume that the Dwarves did
> become invisible, but were immune to wrathification, because they
> persisted in returning to visibility whenever they took off their
> Rings, unlike Men who eventually became permanently invisible?

To the best of my knowledge, that would not be inconsistent with the
evidence, which is why I can only say that that they 'most likely'
didn't become invisible; a wraith, basically, is a wearer who has
become permanently invisible, so the immunity to the wraithification
is a very strong indication, though it could, obviously, also be only
an immunity to the permanency effect. The lack of any description of
an invisible Dwarf is, in this situation, a far weaker, but
corrobating, indication (we do hear something about the heirs of
Durin in LotR App. A,III 'Durin's Folk' and know, for instance, that
Thráin didn't use it to take a peep inside Moria at the Battle of
Azanulbizar, nor did he use it to escape capture by Sauron as Isildur
attempted to use the One when he was set upon by Orcs).

<snip>

> Celebrimbor was an Elf of Nargothrond.

Not really. He was a grand-son of Fëanor, who lived for a long period
in Nargothrond, before and after he 'repudiated the deeds of his
father'.

> The Noldor of Nargothrond liked hiding.

Actually they didn't -- that was why they could so easily be
persuaded not to (by Túrin). Hiding was the official policy of
Nargothrond, and probably the wisest course, but that doesn't mean
that they liked it.

<snip>

> It would seem that, especially in respect to Nine,

There is no reason to believe that there was any difference between
the Seven and the Nine. The dichotomy of the Sixteen was created only
after Sauron distributed them.

> Now, the Elves of Nargothrond also were the ones to ignore the
> advice of Feanor to leave their treasures behind,

Which has, of course, nothing whatsoever to do with Celebrimbor who
crossed in the ships with his father, Curufin.

I also notice that you conveniently ignore the evidence that the
invisibility was derived more directly from Sauron and only was found
in the Rings which he controlled.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not
imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They
laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed
at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the
Clown.
- Carl Sagan
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Troels Forchhammer <Troels.TakeThisOut@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> And the idea that 'For the less even as for the greater there is some
> deed that he may accomplish but once only' would, I am sure, apply
> equally to human artisans and artists -- to each is given, at most,
> one work of perfection and that cannot be repeated.

Alternatively, one can niggle away at a work, say, a lifelong attempt to
write a mythology, and then leave it to one's son to publish it?

I think issues of Tolkien and perfectionism are complicated, to say the
least! I read a reference to him saying that the 'Silmarillion' was his
life work, but he also said that 'The Lord of the Rings' was written in
his "life-blood" (Letter 109).

Christopher
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eroot.RemoveThis@swva.net <eroot.RemoveThis@swva.net> wrote:
> chornedsnorkack.RemoveThis@hushmail.com wrote:

<snip>

>> If Luthien, Elendil and Gil-Galad thought Sauron could not come back
>> after getting killed, why were they wrong?
>
> That they thought this is a mere conjecture on your part, and you are
> still ignoring the idea that none of them may have had a clear idea
> what the powers of a Maia are, or what Sauron's power level even _is_.
> For sure, Elendil would have had no basis for knowing.

This reminds me of comments by Tolkien somewhere (either Letters or in
Unfinished Tales) about how Men perceived Istari. I can't remember
whether he commented similarly about how Elves perceived them.

Christopher

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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

[Carcharoth cf. Carcharodon carcharias]

> I think we have to remember that in Tolkien the etymologies might
> follow the words. They're hardly trustworthy guides to how Tolkien
> created the words, even when we accept them as valid inside the
> story.

Good point.

> He sometimes chose words for their sound, then fitted them into the
> rest of his linguistic system. So it's possible, at least, that he
> chose Carcharoth because he liked the sound of it, perhaps knowingly
> or subconsciously because of the shark taxonomy, then recognized the
> "Car" element and decided to use it, then further decided to create
> "carch" (fang) in Sindarin.

That sounds plausible. Pity we will probably never know. The bit in the
Silmarillion appendix about "red" = "caran" being 'associated' with
Carcharoth ('Red Maw'), rather than a direct translation, might lend
support to your theory.

Christopher

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In message <news:MPG.1ebe29aa5fa8b47698a464@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:15:12 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels RemoveThis @ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>>
>> There is no reason to believe that there was any difference
>> between the Seven and the Nine. The dichotomy of the Sixteen was
>> created only after Sauron distributed them.
>
> Except for that bit in the UT about Sauron torturing Celebrimbor:

<snip quotation>

> But this doesn't make it clear what difference if any there was
> between the Seven and the Nine. One possible reading is that there
> was _no_ difference, that only seven of the Sixteen had been
> handed out and the rest were still in Celebrimbor's treasury.

Or possibly that they were merely stored in different places (possibly
to increase security) and that only the Three had been passed on.

Or that he thought he might get away with revealing only nine to begin
with, but surrendering seven more later.

The main point is that the designation of 'The Nine' and 'The Seven'
cannot be said with any certainty to pre-date Sauron's handing them out
(in the sequence he got hold of them), nor is there any evidence that
they were in any way different (as groups -- beyond the known
differences between the Three as individual Rings).

I'll happily acknowledge that the passage is perfectly consistent with
the reading that even Celebrimbor thought of these two groups as 'the
Seven' and 'the Nine' /before/ they were taken by Sauron, but that is
still a far cry from saying that it is actually a /reason/ to read it
that way. It is quite common to apply a name retroactively.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo
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Stan Brown wrote:
> 11 Apr 2006 10:20:12 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels.TakeThisOut@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> > As I read it, the only purpose for Sauron to infuse the One Ring with
> > part of his native power was to turn it into the Master-ring, the One
> > Ring to rule them all.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly.
>
> > In message <news:MPG.1ea4c37aab314a8698a3d6@news.individual.net>
> > Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
> > > Are you saying Sauron did _not_ build those powers into the Rings?
> >
> > I am saying that he didn't let any part of his native powers pass into
> > any Ring in order to provide them with these powers (invisibility and
> > 'immortality').
> >
> > > If so, why do you think that?
> > > What other source could have made those Rings confer invisibility
> > > and long life? The Elves were not interested in creating such
> > > things, as we know from the Three, so who would have given those
> > > powers to the Sixteen if not Sauron?
> >
> > With respect to the invisibility, I agree entirely that it was built
> > into the Rings by Sauron, in the 'usual way' -- i.e. by the combination
> > of Art and Craft that also constitutes the Elvish magic.
>
> Ah -- you're saying that Sauron could do it without losing any of his
> own power, just as Galadriel's Elves weren't diminished when they
> made unsinkable boats. Okay, I'll buy that.
>
Plus, Sauron could have tricked the Elves into putting in their own
native powers.

> I'm thinking about the cloaks they gave the company -- "And you will
> find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes,
> whether you walk among the stones or the trees. " Not invisibility
> but "unobtrusiveness" was their power.
>
> > I'm a bit more uncertain about the longevity -- it seems to follow as a
> > perversion of the chief power of all the Rings alike: that of staying
> > decay and change. The Elven motif here would be to allow the wearer to
> > experience Time as it were before the Sun and the Moon. I'm not sure
> > if there is more to the life-stretching effect of the Rings than that;
> > it would not surprise me if Sauron had taken a relatively harmless
> > power and perverted it into what we see in LotR.
>
> I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes sense. We know that
> the Elves' motive was /preservation/. Therefore all the Nineteen had
> some powers of preservation, which Sauron could misdirect in the ones
> he got hold of. Or perhaps, even, the preservation effect _as_
> _designed_ was dangerous to Men and Hobbits, since Celebrimbor
> intended all the Nineteen for Elves.
>
Indeed.

Imagine that a Man held one of the Three. With no Sauron wielding the
One. What would happen to a human wearer of one of Three?
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In message <news:MPG.1ebe2b951f9a8a9f98a465@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> 11 Apr 2006 10:20:12 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
> <Troels DeleteThis @ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>>
>> As I read it, the only purpose for Sauron to infuse the One Ring
>> with part of his native power was to turn it into the
>> Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly.
>
>> In message <news:MPG.1ea4c37aab314a8698a3d6@news.individual.net>
>> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>> > Are you saying Sauron did _not_ build those powers into the
>> > Rings?
>>
>> I am saying that he didn't let any part of his native powers pass
>> into any Ring in order to provide them with these powers
>> (invisibility and 'immortality').
>>
>> > If so, why do you think that?
>> > What other source could have made those Rings confer
>> > invisibility and long life? The Elves were not interested in
>> > creating such things, as we know from the Three, so who would
>> > have given those powers to the Sixteen if not Sauron?
>>
>> With respect to the invisibility, I agree entirely that it was
>> built into the Rings by Sauron, in the 'usual way' -- i.e. by the
>> combination of Art and Craft that also constitutes the Elvish
>> magic.
>
> Ah -- you're saying that Sauron could do it without losing any of
> his own power,

Yes.

> just as Galadriel's Elves weren't diminished when they made
> unsinkable boats.

Or even when 'they' made silmarils or palantíri.

I think the permanent externalization of power done accidentally by
Morgoth and deliberately in the One Ring by Sauron is sufficiently
clearly the exception. The Elven magic was, as Tolkien wrote in one
place, Art, and insofar as the Elven artist-artisans did 'put something
of themselves' into their creations, this was in the artistic sense,
rather than an irretrievable transfer of innate power or energy.

> Okay, I'll buy that.



> I'm thinking about the cloaks they gave the company -- "And you
> will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of
> unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees."
> Not invisibility but "unobtrusiveness" was their power.

[...] we put the thought of all that we love into all
that we make

And, to put it a bit primitively, when they need to make another cloak,
all they have to do is to think of leaf and branch, water and stone
again.

I still think the invisibility was more likely added to the Rings by
Sauron after he regained them, and as a power it seems to me to be more
in line with the aspect of the Machine than even the Rings in general.
In general I think the Elven-smiths, while gullible in the sense of
taking Sauron's advice, were still too clever by half to be deceived
into conferring to the Rings of Power abilities that were much of the
Machine (shifting the material body into the wraith-world).

>> I'm a bit more uncertain about the longevity -- it seems to
>> follow as a perversion of the chief power of all the Rings alike:
>> that of staying decay and change.
[...]
>
> I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes sense. We know
> that the Elves' motive was /preservation/.

I came across a passage in LotR that helps us understand the Rings:

Those who made them did not desire strength or domination
or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing,
to preserve all things unstained.
[LotR II,2 'The Council of Elrond']

Of course this is applied specifically to the Three, but it seems to
encompass also the Elven purposes of all the Rings of Power. Most
importantly 'to preserve all things unstained', and then understanding,
making and healing. I don't see invisibility fitting in there very well
(or the greedy hoarding of wealth that characterized the Dwarven
wielders: that part is explicitly precluded). Even as an aid to
understanding, invisibility could only help the wielder to obtain
knowledge he wasn't meant or supposed to have -- not, IMO, an Elven
motif.

> Therefore all the Nineteen had some powers of preservation,
> which Sauron could misdirect in the ones he got hold of. Or
> perhaps, even, the preservation effect _as_ _designed_ was
> dangerous to Men and Hobbits, since Celebrimbor intended all
> the Nineteen for Elves.

We might compare the experiences of the Fellowship when they were in
Lothlórien -- Time was perceived differently there. The more dangerous
side-effects, the wraithification in particular, could well be a result
of later meddling, and the longevity simply an unforseen effect on a
human wearer. Whether it would, in that case, have been dangerous for
a human to e.g. wear one of the Three (no invisibility) is, to me,
impossible to say (or rather -- of course it would be dangerous:
Gandalf implies as much even for the lesser rings, but would this
particular aspect be dangerous?).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you
haven't understood it yet.
- Niels Bohr (1885-1962)
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On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:28:45 +0000, Troels Forchhammer wrote:

>
> I came across a passage in LotR that helps us understand the Rings:
>
> Those who made them did not desire strength or domination
> or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing,
> to preserve all things unstained.
> [LotR II,2 'The Council of Elrond']
>
> Of course this is applied specifically to the Three, but it seems to
> encompass also the Elven purposes of all the Rings of Power. Most
> importantly 'to preserve all things unstained', and then understanding,
> making and healing. I don't see invisibility fitting in there very well
> (or the greedy hoarding of wealth that characterized the Dwarven
> wielders: that part is explicitly precluded). Even as an aid to
> understanding, invisibility could only help the wielder to obtain
> knowledge he wasn't meant or supposed to have -- not, IMO, an Elven
> motif.
>
>> Therefore all the Nineteen had some powers of preservation,
>> which Sauron could misdirect in the ones he got hold of. Or
>> perhaps, even, the preservation effect _as_ _designed_ was
>> dangerous to Men and Hobbits, since Celebrimbor intended all
>> the Nineteen for Elves.

I have always believed that this is the reason for the "wraithification"
of mortal men. It is stated that Eru's gift to men was death.
Perhaps the greatest Change there is. And the Elvish purpose of the
rings of power was to "preserve all things unstained". But (I
believe) you cannot contradict Eru without there being a price to
be paid. In this line of reasoning, it is not Sauron's 'fault' that
wraithification happens, however he does take advantage of it.
Additionally, if my reasoning is correct, even the three would have
turned a mortal, in time, into a wraith.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anthony B Gialluca tonyabg [at] charter [dot] net

"Welcome to my house! Enter freely. Go safely, and leave something of
the happiness you bring!"
Dracula's greeting to Jonathan Harker: Bram Stoker, Dracula
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