The source of Ring-powers

In message <news:e4qb88$ati$1@news.msu.edu> stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com
enriched us with:
>

[longevity as empty continuation]

>> Was this present in the early versions -- before the Three became
>> unsullied?
>
> The Rings turned everyone, except Dwarves, into wraiths.
[...]
> The original idea of the Rings was that they made anyone
> invisible, and eventually their users became wraiths.

But nothing about whether they also stretched the life of the wielder
/before/ turning him into wraith?

> The idea that this applied only to men came much later.

We might discuss that at some time -- I think that an Elf[*] who put
on one of the Nine would become invisible and eventually be turned
into a wraith, even in the final version of the story (mostly because
I cannot see any reason why they should be).

[*] With the possible exception of Calaquendi, who, according to
Gandalf, 'live at once in both worlds' -- something which might
very well help against being drawn permanently into one of them.

[The numbers, 9, 7, 3 and 1, and their designations in early
versions]

> The Ring Verse was introduced in what Christopher Tolkien calls
> the 'second phase'. The idea of Men only have three rings is
> from the 'first phase', but it survived into the second phase.

And I see that he was playing around with various numbers (are there
any indications of why? Of what effect he planned to achieve by the
different combinations, including varying the total?)

This all makes me all the more interested in the 'History of the Lord
of the Rings' part of HoMe (the only volumes which I still miss), but
on the other hand I think I should probably familiarize myself more
with the ones I do have, which I have so far used mostly for
reference.

<snipping versions of the Ring Verse>

Thanks!

> The number of Nazgul was not always nine either.
> When Tolkien only imagined there were only three rings
> given to Men, there is no to know how many Rings
> other men might have found or how many Nazgul there
> were in total.

And we'd have to add the Elvish and goblin wraiths as well, I
suppose.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

It is the theory which decides what can be observed.
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

> I do remember that an early version of "Ancient History", which was
> adapted into "The Shadow of the Past", did have Elven-wraiths, but
> that JRRT eventually rejected that idea.

An important point, there, about discussing the drafts. You have to make
a judgement (if you are not told) about whether Tolkien discarded
something written in drafts because he rejected it, or because there was
no room (by which I mean no way to work into the story something he
might like to have seen there, and that he would have kept as consistent
with his view of the world in which his stories were set).

Christopher

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In rec.arts.books.tolkien Troels Forchhammer <Troels RemoveThis @thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <news:e4qb88$ati$1@news.msu.edu> stephen RemoveThis @nomail.com
> enriched us with:
>>

> [longevity as empty continuation]
>
>>> Was this present in the early versions -- before the Three became
>>> unsullied?
>>
>> The Rings turned everyone, except Dwarves, into wraiths.
> [...]
>> The original idea of the Rings was that they made anyone
>> invisible, and eventually their users became wraiths.

> But nothing about whether they also stretched the life of the wielder
> /before/ turning him into wraith?

That idea actually does appear in the earliest description
of the Rings. From "Gollum and the Ring", which is part
of the 'first phase' of the writing of the Lord of the Rings
there is this passage:
"'Still, Gollum must have been, or be, very much older than
the oldest hobbit that ever lived in field or burrow,' said
Bingo.
'That was the Ring,' said Gandalf. 'Of course it is a poor
sort of long life that the Ring gives, a kind of stretched
life rather than a continued growing - a sort of thinning
and thinning."

>> The idea that this applied only to men came much later.

> We might discuss that at some time -- I think that an Elf[*] who put
> on one of the Nine would become invisible and eventually be turned
> into a wraith, even in the final version of the story (mostly because
> I cannot see any reason why they should be).

I really do not see any evidence for it either way. I have always
associated the "thinning" and "stretching" with the "wraithification".
Elves were immortal, so they would not need to have their
lives stretched. However they did fade eventually, but that takes
thousands and thousands of years. Perhaps the rings would accelerate
this. But that seems a bit odd that they would delay "aging" in
humans but accelerate it in Elves. But this, or any answer,
will be mostly speculation.

<snip>

>> The Ring Verse was introduced in what Christopher Tolkien calls
>> the 'second phase'. The idea of Men only have three rings is
>> from the 'first phase', but it survived into the second phase.

> And I see that he was playing around with various numbers (are there
> any indications of why? Of what effect he planned to achieve by the
> different combinations, including varying the total?)

What effect did he achieve with the current total? He
was just making it up as he went along.

> This all makes me all the more interested in the 'History of the Lord
> of the Rings' part of HoMe (the only volumes which I still miss), but
> on the other hand I think I should probably familiarize myself more
> with the ones I do have, which I have so far used mostly for
> reference.

The "Return of the Shadow" is the most interesting of the
'History of the Lord of the Rings' volumes. In the latter
volumes, the story more and more approaches the final version.
The different and interesting tidbits become fewer and farther
between. But in "Return of the Shadow" things are very different,
and some of the early drafts and plot outlines bear little
resemblance to the final version.

Stephen
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In message <news:MPG.1eda8f5d831c14fa98a4ca@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> enriched us with:
>
> We have Gandalf's statement in "The Shadow of the Past":

<snip quotation>

> That sounds as though Gandalf meant this statement to apply to
> mortals and only to mortals. If it also applied to Elves, why
> would he have been so specific as to say "a mortal"?

An Elf would obviously not have his or her life prolonged. Whether or
not they would 'not grow or obtain more life' is an open question
(though I think not -- I see the stretching as the result of forcing
the same 'life' to cover a longer period and since the Elves had
'life' to cover the whole history of Arda, that wouldn't affect them,
if I am right). But I do think that an Elven wielder would be equally
susceptible to the preservation and staying of decay; the point is
merely that doesn't make any difference to prevent something that
doesn't happen anyway (the ageing of Elves).

Since we can be sure that the first part of Gandalf's statement
applies only to humans (actually I'd designate Dwarves as mortals
also, despite Gandalf's statement here), I don't think that we can
conclude that the following sentence is necessarily similarly
restricted.

It would probably have been better for me to separate the issues a
bit.

I am quite sure that an Elf would have become invisible (with the
usual doubt applying to Calaquendi), and that, to me, also implies
that they might be susceptible to the wraithification (obviously
there might be evidence hidden in the textual history of how the
Elven wraiths disappeard that would refute this, but to me it seems
that the introduction of the Three as unsullied and not conferring
invisibility is meant precisely to explain the absence of Elven
wraiths and invisible Elven wielders).

There is the possibility that the wraithification depended on more
than just the repeated use of a Ring of Power to become invisible,
but unless it be specifically the stretching (which might, for
instance, leave a human wielder vulnerable in some ways), I don't
think we have much basis for claiming that this wouldn't affect
Elves. Of course there is still the possibility that Elves were
immune to some necessary part of the wraithification, but based on
the evidence I know of (which, as pointed out, doesn't include the
'History of LotR' books) I would say that it is more likely that they
would have become wraiths.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Truth in science can be defined as the working hypothesis
best suited to open the way to the next better one.
- Konrad Lorenz
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In message <news:0T4cg.73272$wl.64207@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
>
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> I do remember that an early version of "Ancient History", which
>> was adapted into "The Shadow of the Past", did have
>> Elven-wraiths, but that JRRT eventually rejected that idea.
>
> An important point, there, about discussing the drafts. You have
> to make a judgement (if you are not told) about whether Tolkien
> discarded something written in drafts because he rejected it, or
> because there was no room

And even if he rejected it (which I could well imagine being the case
here), there is still the question of how. Did he reject it as being
impossible within his sub-creation, or did he not want it as part of
his story and thus arranged matters so as to prevent it from
happening.

Even if he didn't want to have Elven wraiths (to use the current
example), he might still wish to retain the possibility of them as a
route to a Fall for Elves, a danger to the wise or for some other
reason.

In the later versions, the Three were made unsullied, and the ability
to confer invisibility was removed from them. This would suffice,
IMO, to explain the absence of Elven wraiths, since no Elf wielded
any of the other Rings of Power after Sauron perverted them (or even,
in case the invisibility/wraithification was part of the original
design, kept one for long enough to become a wraith).

It's a judgement, as you say, of what is the more probable (in the
Bayesian sense), and whether one thinks the likelihood is good enough
to make a choice.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

When one admits that nothing is certain one must, I think,
also admit that some things are much more nearly certain
than others.
- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
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In alt.fan.tolkien Troels Forchhammer <Troels.RemoveThis@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
snip
> susceptible to the preservation and staying of decay; the point is
> merely that doesn't make any difference to prevent something that
> doesn't happen anyway (the ageing of Elves).

Well, it does, albeit slowly.


> Since we can be sure that the first part of Gandalf's statement
> applies only to humans (actually I'd designate Dwarves as mortals
> also, despite Gandalf's statement here),

Dwarves didn't become wraiths and probably didn't have their life
prolonged when wearing the seven, so in this respect they were different
from humans. This is one of the reasons it seems unlikely that elves
would have become wraits. I think the wraithification applied only to
humans and was a result of extreme stretching. Their bodies and sould
weren't simply meant for a life that long so it became a sort of unlife
if the standard RPG term can be used. snip
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In message <news:e4qv49$dl1$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>
Tamim <hallaril.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
> In alt.fan.tolkien Troels Forchhammer <Troels.RemoveThis@thisisfake.invalid>
> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> something that doesn't happen anyway (the ageing of Elves).
>
> Well, it does, albeit slowly.

It's negligible anyway (at least on time-scales less than many ages).

I don't think that the 'life' of an Elf would be stretched, and that
is the main point -- whether or not there would normally be a very
slow ageing is, I think, probably irrelevant as the Elf would not die
from that ageing anyway.

>> Since we can be sure that the first part of Gandalf's statement
>> applies only to humans (actually I'd designate Dwarves as mortals
>> also, despite Gandalf's statement here),
>
> Dwarves didn't become wraiths and probably didn't have their life
> prolonged when wearing the seven, so in this respect they were
> different from humans. This is one of the reasons it seems
> unlikely that elves would have become wraits.

Strangely I see it in exactly the opposite way. We know that Dwarves
are an exception, and hence the default assumption must be that Elves
are susceptible (i.e. are not another exception).

We have a good explanation about the Dwarves, making it clear that
their situation is special:

But they were made from their beginning of a kind to
resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they
could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced
to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same
reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to
live either longer or shorter because of it.
[LotR App. A, III 'Durin's Folk']

This not only explains precisely why the Dwarves were an exception,
but that exception can also be seen not to apply to the Elves -- they
were /not/ capable of resisting the domination (as is obvious from
their reaction when Sauron put on the Master Ring, and the fate of
the Three and their wielders, should Sauron regain the One).

Thus we have an exception, and an explanation for that exception, and
yet you claim the existence of another exception that has another
explanation, but without pointing to any evidence for either the
exception or the explanation.

> I think the wraithification applied only to humans and was a result
> of extreme stretching.

Gandalf, in the oft-quoted passage from I,2 'The Shadow of the Past'
implies something else:
And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible,
he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently,
and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power
that rules the Rings.

Here it is the invisibility effect that is given as the direct cause
of the wraithification.

There remains, obviously, the possibility that I mentioned previously
that the wraithification depends on both effects: both invisibility
and the stretching of life. In that case it would seem to me that
Elves would most likely be immune (at least as long as we're
considering period less than, say, 10,000 years; beyond that I
suppose that there might be an effect if the Elf is prevented from
fading normally).

The main problem with that, however, is that, as far as I know, there
is no direct evidence that the wraithification is tied to the life-
stretching, so while it would seem a very reasonable proposition, it
must remain less likely.

> Their bodies and sould weren't simply meant for a life that long
> so it became a sort of unlife if the standard RPG term can be used.

That is, I think, more or less the explanation I give for the
stretching as well (I discount the body -- the body is what is being
affected, IMO, and thus it is made capable of the long life that it
wasn't intended to -- the stretching, IMO, is purely
mental/spiritual).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your
feeling of what reality "ought to be".
- Richard Feynman
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Troels Forchhammer a écrit :
> There remains, obviously, the possibility that I mentioned previously
> that the wraithification depends on both effects: both invisibility
> and the stretching of life. In that case it would seem to me that
> Elves would most likely be immune (at least as long as we're
> considering period less than, say, 10,000 years; beyond that I
> suppose that there might be an effect if the Elf is prevented from
> fading normally).
>
> The main problem with that, however, is that, as far as I know, there
> is no direct evidence that the wraithification is tied to the life-
> stretching, so while it would seem a very reasonable proposition, it
> must remain less likely.
>
>> Their bodies and sould weren't simply meant for a life that long
>> so it became a sort of unlife if the standard RPG term can be used.
>
> That is, I think, more or less the explanation I give for the
> stretching as well (I discount the body -- the body is what is being
> affected, IMO, and thus it is made capable of the long life that it
> wasn't intended to -- the stretching, IMO, is purely
> mental/spiritual).
>

To me, «elven wraiths» sounds like «dry rain» and other oxymorons. Using
Bilbo's words, let's say they never get short of butter, no matter the
size of the bread.
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In message <news:3jrcg.48122$GX4.903445@wagner.videotron.net>
nfw <brasseurNO RemoveThis @SPgrandefauxA.Mcom> enriched us with:
>

<snip>

> To me, «elven wraiths» sounds like «dry rain» and other oxymorons.

Let me then take the role, this time, of the clever idiot . . .

> Using Bilbo's words, let's say they never get short of butter, no
> matter the size of the bread.

You still has to give at least some evidence in support of the
assumption that the thickness of the butter has anything to do with
wraithification . . . (other than 'common assumption).

This is precisely the assumption I am questioning here, and asking
for some actual evidence that can support it (not a mere repetition
of the assumption). It might very well be that such evidence exists
-- I am far from an expert, but I would just like to know such
evidence (which is very likely to exist -- why else would so many
people, much more knowledgeable about Tolkien than I, hold that
belief).


As is evident from the messages from Stephen (and thanks to Stephen
for this excellent information), there was a time in the earliest
phase(s) of the development of LotR where:

- There were Elven wraiths
- The Elves were 'immortal' (in the same sense as always)
- The Rings conferred invisibility
- The Ring caused a stretching of life for Gollum
(presumably for all Humans)

At this point it is evident that the immortality (or longevity) of
the Elves did /not/ prevent the Elves from becoming wraiths.

Later the Elven wraiths disappeared, which could, story-internally,
be achieved in many ways, one of which is to make it entirely
impossible to turn any Elf into a wraith. I strongly suspect that
Tolkien removed the Elven wraiths because he felt that they were
inconsistent with the general role of the Elves in his stories (best
phrased in TH: 'Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good
People.') This would explain why the idea of an Elven wraith feels so
unnatural and alien (which I do agree that it does). This, however,
would, IMO, be strengthened if the absence of Elven wraiths was due
to the actions and choices of the Elves rather than due to an
unvirtuous innate immunity.

Now we have Gandalf's statement that it is the use of a Ring to
become invisible that turns a wielder into a wraith (or, to be exact,
that doing so /often/ brings about the wraithification sooner), thus
creating a dependency between the wraithification and the
invisibility effect; the former depending on the latter.

At the same time we have the knowledge that the Three do not confer
invisibility.

These two facts are, in and of themselves, sufficient to explain the
absence of Elven wraiths. It is not logically necessary to look for
any other explanations (logic, however, isn't always the whole
picture, is it <G>).

The information about the Three isn't readily available in LotR (it's
from /Letters/), which could lead people to think that Elves and
Maiar were immune to the invisibility effect and hence to the
wraithification. This would be a reasonable assumption until the
discovery of the information in Letters.

The full wording of Gandalf's statement implies that long possession
of a Great Ring would, for a mortal, eventually result in both the
stretching of life and ultimately wraithficiation. This could be read
as implying a causal connection between the two, but that would, IMO,
be an error. The statement is fully consistent with a causal
connection, but is not, IMO, indicative of one (but I could easily be
wrong about English usage), and does certainly not depend on one.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

It is the theory which decides what can be observed.
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
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Troels Forchhammer a écrit :
> You still has to give at least some evidence in support of the
> assumption that the thickness of the butter has anything to do with
> wraithification . . . (other than 'common assumption).

Sorry, I have no evidence. I have yet to read /Letters/ and the LOTR
parts of HoME, and there may well be none in there, for if there were
someone should have pointed it here already.

Still, I agree that it is far more interesting to think of wraithifiable
elves *choosing* to forsake the power of the rings out of wisdom than
thinking of immune elfes never put to the test.

<snip great clues sum-up>

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