speaking of rereads . . .

jerry wrote:
> Mitch Edelman wrote:
> > I had started rereading the Kelson series this summer - and a couple
> > of questions rather jumped out:
> >
> > a) as there is some discussion on the need for Deryni to be trained
> > in using their powers, how would Jehana have just used her latent
> > skill without knowing of them, and especially without having practiced
> > them? One might speculate that under conditions of extreme stress, one
> > discovers unknown strength, but there is (in my simple mind, anyway),
> > a world of difference between an adrenaline rush and a bolt of psychic
> > power.
>
>
> I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
> learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
> create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
> it would do something and concentrating it might even due what you
> want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
> protect her son.

My theory about Jehana is that her own power use frightened her
because she used more power in a big, desperate blast that she actually
needed. Had she been trained, she would have an obviously greater
control and finesse, and would only use as much power as was necessary
for whatever effect she was trying for. Instead, she feels this big
uncontrolled and unwieldy power stream flowing through her and it
frightens the bejeebers out of her. Partly because she knows she
doesn't have it under control and it could end up doing harm she did
not intend.
>
> It has been pointed out in the books that sometimes the power is
> discovered accidentally. Such is the case of Rhys discovering his
> healing power and his blocking ability.
>
> >
> > b) in the Bishop's Heir, it strikes me as ditinctly odd that the royal
> > court would spend a great deal of thought and effort to persuade Sidana
> > that a marriage to Kelson would be more than one of obligation of state.
> > However, to my recollection, no effort is expended to try to soften the
> > attitude of Llewell. It seems to be a massive oversight, especially given the
> > collective wisdom of Kelson's inner circle of counsellors, friends, and
> > advisors (Morgan, Arilan, Duncan, Richenda and even Nigel) that not a one
> > of them would even suggest that Kelson spend time with his future
> > brother-in-law and a known (and sworn) enemy of the Haldanes, with the
> > intention of softening his hatred, especially given his conduct.
>
> Kelson seems to be fairly honorable type of lad. HE didn't want to
> influence Sidana's decision though he had made up his mind that the
> marriage would go through even if she didn't want it. In Llewell's
> case, I think that he was talked to he just chose to stick to the
> Mearan cause. As for Truth reading, that seems to be a hit and miss
> function. You have to ask the right questions and there are ways
> around it. Mind seeing would have been the way to go but Kelson would
> probably not have allowed it.
>
> >
> > Even given Kelson's distaste for using his powers (say, of compulsion to
> > assure good conduct), it seems odd to me that no one would at least have
> > truth-read Llewell for thoughts or plans to disrupting the royal wedding.
> >
> >
> > What think you all??
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Mitch Edelman
>
>
> jerry

Well... NOT truth reading Llewell was an oversight. So was allowing
him to escort her to the church. I agree that Kelson would not have
countenanced a mind-reading without a definite warning Llewell DID
plant to disrupt the wedding. He certainly knew there was a lot of
free-floating hostility, there but perhaps no specific plan to do harm
AT the wedding. I think it was a motive of not wanting to
frighten/alienate Sidana AND Llewell with an unwarranted use of power
to pry into his mind that prevented that safeguard from happening. As
for allowing Llewell to be in the wedding, I'm sure Kelson meant that
as a reassurance to Sidana. He felt sorry for her being shoved into
this marriage, and wanted the day to be as unstressful as he could make
it by allowing her the company of her only family member present.
Possibly Llewell didn't even plan to murder Sidana until that day.
Maybe he pinched the knife he used on pure impulse from some squire or
page, and only at the moment he acted did he know what he would do to
Sidana with the knife. Granted he was thinking clearly enough not to
go for Kelson with it, realizing that Morgan and Dhugal would protect
him, although he had the chance to do it. And he knew that killing
Kelson would not save Sidana from a Haldane marriage.

Calculating little jerk. =o)

Melissa
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

>
> I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
> learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
> create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
> it would do something and concentrating it might even due what you
> want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
> protect her son.
>
>
> jerry

I think you are missing another possibility. Jehana had been trained
but that and even her remembering she is Deryni was blocked. At the
coronation someone with that power unblocked her at the right time,
maybe even someone from the secret inner council.
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

tenworld wrote:
> >
> > I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
> > learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
> > create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
> > it would do something and concentrating it might even do what you
> > want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
> > protect her son.
> >
> >
> > jerry
>
> I think you are missing another possibility. Jehana had been trained
> but that and even her remembering she is Deryni was blocked. At the
> coronation someone with that power unblocked her at the right time,
> maybe even someone from the secret inner council.

DR seems to indicate that Jehana at least suspected that she was
Deryni. Training being blocked maybe a valid point. Maybe we will find
out some of this in the third book of the CM series.

jerry
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

jerry wrote:
> tenworld wrote:
> > >
> > > I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
> > > learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
> > > create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
> > > it would do something and concentrating it might even do what you
> > > want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
> > > protect her son.
> > >
> > >
> > > jerry
> >
> > I think you are missing another possibility. Jehana had been trained
> > but that and even her remembering she is Deryni was blocked. At the
> > coronation someone with that power unblocked her at the right time,
> > maybe even someone from the secret inner council.
>
> DR seems to indicate that Jehana at least suspected that she was
> Deryni. Training being blocked maybe a valid point. Maybe we will find
> out some of this in the third book of the CM series.
>
> jerry

I tend to doubt she was actively blocked by another Deryni. In
practical matters, it requires a Healer--already a very small number of
people, and blocking Healers were a tiny minority among even that
select group. As of DR, Alaric and Duncan find out they can heal
purely by chance. Alaric would have little reason to block Jehana--if
anything, he'd want her to come to terms with her powers, not make them
inaccessible to her. That's making the rather large assumption that he
is a blocking Healer at all. (I tend to suspect Morgan, Duncan or
Dhugal will discover the blocking function by accident much as Rhys did
in CTH.)

Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that somewhere out
there there is a blocking Healer we don't know about. And whom the CC
doesn't know about, either. In 1120, the art of Healing was thought to
be dead, so it seems unlikely that's the case.

I think Jehana suspected her powers, and was so freaked out by it, she
did all she could to suppress that knowledge and hide it even from
herself. This was not totally psychotic on her part--she had reason to
fear the consequences of being discovered as a Deryni with the Church
of Gwynedd being led by Loris. And to fear the consequences for
Kelson. Brion would have protected them both, but how far could he go
and still remain in good standing with the Church? So in some part on a
practical level, she would have wanted to spare herself and her family
from that possibility. But when Charissa killed her husband, she just
couldn't stand by and let her kill Kelson too without at least trying
to protect him.

Melissa
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

Shiral wrote:
> jerry wrote:
> > tenworld wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
> > > > learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
> > > > create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
> > > > it would do something and concentrating it might even do what you
> > > > want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
> > > > protect her son.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > jerry
> > >
> > > I think you are missing another possibility. Jehana had been trained
> > > but that and even her remembering she is Deryni was blocked. At the
> > > coronation someone with that power unblocked her at the right time,
> > > maybe even someone from the secret inner council.
> >
> > DR seems to indicate that Jehana at least suspected that she was
> > Deryni. Training being blocked maybe a valid point. Maybe we will find
> > out some of this in the third book of the CM series.
> >
> > jerry
>
> I tend to doubt she was actively blocked by another Deryni. In
> practical matters, it requires a Healer--already a very small number of
> people, and blocking Healers were a tiny minority among even that
> select group. As of DR, Alaric and Duncan find out they can heal
> purely by chance. Alaric would have little reason to block Jehana--if
> anything, he'd want her to come to terms with her powers, not make them
> inaccessible to her. That's making the rather large assumption that he
> is a blocking Healer at all. (I tend to suspect Morgan, Duncan or
> Dhugal will discover the blocking function by accident much as Rhys did
> in CTH.)
>
> Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that somewhere out
> there there is a blocking Healer we don't know about. And whom the CC
> doesn't know about, either. In 1120, the art of Healing was thought to
> be dead, so it seems unlikely that's the case.
>
> I think Jehana suspected her powers, and was so freaked out by it, she
> did all she could to suppress that knowledge and hide it even from
> herself. This was not totally psychotic on her part--she had reason to
> fear the consequences of being discovered as a Deryni with the Church
> of Gwynedd being led by Loris. And to fear the consequences for
> Kelson. Brion would have protected them both, but how far could he go
> and still remain in good standing with the Church? So in some part on a
> practical level, she would have wanted to spare herself and her family
> from that possibility. But when Charissa killed her husband, she just
> couldn't stand by and let her kill Kelson too without at least trying
> to protect him.
>
> Melissa
In 1120, healing let alone blocking is considered a lost art from what
I gathered so
I agree that Jehana being BLOCKED as in Rhys' trick was not a
possiblility when she was younger. But I wonder could a trained
Deryni, for some given reason- say you are going to go marry someone
one whose lands hate deryni-, allow another deryni to block their
memory that they were deryni or that the person blocking their memory
away was deryni? The person would still have all their powers but
just have no concious level way to realize they have them so would not
look to access them because they would not realize they had them. In
Jehana's case I doubt that this happened but could it? Obviously
Jehana's family deryniness is not a known factor in the 11 kingdoms as
I would doubt that the church would have allowed their king to marry a
god foresaken Deryni- exspecially after the trouble his father
apparantly has with the church. The church may turn a blind eye to the
king having a deryni pet but marrying one.

jerry
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

my reasons for Jehana being blocked are that

1. the risk of her being detected by merasha by a priest with motive
would be too high

2. the risk that trained deryni such as Arilan even Morgan would pick
up a vibration is there

3. the risk that an ambassador from Tirenth or the Hort would routinely
read her and learn she was Deryni

I definetely dont believe Morgan or duncan or even Arilan or any member
of the known Camberian Council blocked her. She may have been willing
to be blocked because of her feelings, but since her parents were not
known Deryni then they too were probably blocked
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

On 6 Sep 2006 09:12:59 -0700, "Shiral" <shiral14 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>jerry wrote:
>> tenworld wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
>> > > learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
>> > > create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
>> > > it would do something and concentrating it might even do what you
>> > > want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
>> > > protect her son.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > jerry
>> >
>> > I think you are missing another possibility. Jehana had been trained
>> > but that and even her remembering she is Deryni was blocked. At the
>> > coronation someone with that power unblocked her at the right time,
>> > maybe even someone from the secret inner council.
>>
>> DR seems to indicate that Jehana at least suspected that she was
>> Deryni. Training being blocked maybe a valid point. Maybe we will find
>> out some of this in the third book of the CM series.
>>
>> jerry
>
>I tend to doubt she was actively blocked by another Deryni. In
>practical matters, it requires a Healer--already a very small number of
>people, and blocking Healers were a tiny minority among even that
>select group. As of DR, Alaric and Duncan find out they can heal
>purely by chance. Alaric would have little reason to block Jehana--if
>anything, he'd want her to come to terms with her powers, not make them
>inaccessible to her. That's making the rather large assumption that he
>is a blocking Healer at all. (I tend to suspect Morgan, Duncan or
>Dhugal will discover the blocking function by accident much as Rhys did
>in CTH.)
>
>Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that somewhere out
>there there is a blocking Healer we don't know about. And whom the CC
>doesn't know about, either. In 1120, the art of Healing was thought to
>be dead, so it seems unlikely that's the case.
>
>I think Jehana suspected her powers, and was so freaked out by it, she
>did all she could to suppress that knowledge and hide it even from
>herself. This was not totally psychotic on her part--she had reason to
>fear the consequences of being discovered as a Deryni with the Church
>of Gwynedd being led by Loris. And to fear the consequences for
>Kelson. Brion would have protected them both, but how far could he go
>and still remain in good standing with the Church? So in some part on a
>practical level, she would have wanted to spare herself and her family
>from that possibility. But when Charissa killed her husband, she just
>couldn't stand by and let her kill Kelson too without at least trying
>to protect him.

Melissa,

That was certainly *my* take (even after I found out about blocking).

When I first read DR, who knew (I didn't...) about blocking, so your
scenario above is the eminently plausible explanation I figured for
Jehana's, err, reaction. (and that's what it was - a reaction)

--

Wes Struebing

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

In article <1157559179.356369.270760 DeleteThis @d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
Shiral <shiral14 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>jerry wrote:
>> tenworld wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I think all Deryni have power that they can tap. Trained Deryni have
>> > > learned how to channel that power using certain mental disciplines to
>> > > create certain affects but even untrained if they excercised the power
>> > > it would do something and concentrating it might even do what you
>> > > want. I think that is what happened with Jehana- she wanted to
>> > > protect her son.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > jerry
>> >
>> > I think you are missing another possibility. Jehana had been trained
>> > but that and even her remembering she is Deryni was blocked. At the
>> > coronation someone with that power unblocked her at the right time,
>> > maybe even someone from the secret inner council.
>>
>> DR seems to indicate that Jehana at least suspected that she was
>> Deryni. Training being blocked maybe a valid point. Maybe we will find
>> out some of this in the third book of the CM series.
>>
>> jerry
>
>I tend to doubt she was actively blocked by another Deryni. In
>practical matters, it requires a Healer--already a very small number of
>people, and blocking Healers were a tiny minority among even that
>select group. As of DR, Alaric and Duncan find out they can heal
>purely by chance. Alaric would have little reason to block Jehana--if
>anything, he'd want her to come to terms with her powers, not make them
>inaccessible to her. That's making the rather large assumption that he
>is a blocking Healer at all. (I tend to suspect Morgan, Duncan or
>Dhugal will discover the blocking function by accident much as Rhys did
>in CTH.)
>
>Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that somewhere out
>there there is a blocking Healer we don't know about. And whom the CC
>doesn't know about, either. In 1120, the art of Healing was thought to
>be dead, so it seems unlikely that's the case.
>
>I think Jehana suspected her powers, and was so freaked out by it, she
>did all she could to suppress that knowledge and hide it even from
>herself. This was not totally psychotic on her part--she had reason to
>fear the consequences of being discovered as a Deryni with the Church
>of Gwynedd being led by Loris. And to fear the consequences for
>Kelson. Brion would have protected them both, but how far could he go
>and still remain in good standing with the Church? So in some part on a
>practical level, she would have wanted to spare herself and her family
>from that possibility. But when Charissa killed her husband, she just
>couldn't stand by and let her kill Kelson too without at least trying
>to protect him.
>
>Melissa
>


I am not so sure that Jehana would have been aware of her heritage: to wit,
her education (according to the Codex) was under a notorious Deryni-hater,
one Mother Rohane, It would be beyond comprehension that a child's parents
willingly would board her in a school where her race and heritage were
openly disparaed. She was a full Deryni (which means both her parents were).

My suspicion is that at both sides of her family tree were among those
blocked in the time of Evaine and Rhys Lord Thuryn, else her Deryni
ancestry would have been known. Of course, that leaves open the question
of what unblocked her dormant power ...

Cheers,

Mitch Edelman
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

"Mitch Edelman" <edelman.RemoveThis@umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:ednv7g$3f9$1@linux2.gl.umbc.edu...
> In article <1157559179.356369.270760.RemoveThis@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,

[generous snip]

It would be beyond comprehension that a child's parents
> willingly would board her in a school where her race and heritage were
> openly disparaed.

[slight snip]

I believe (although I have no citation for it) that this actually happened
with some frequency during the Holocaust.

What better way to ensure your child's survival in a time of persecution
than to hide her among the persecutor group? This, of course, would work
only if the child could not -- even accidentally -- reveal its true
heritage, which could be accomplished by turning the child over at a very
young age, OR by blocking of some sort.

Plus, if Jehana's parents were themselves blocked in infancy, they would not
know that they were turning over their child to "the enemy." If they, or
another, more distant, ancestor, had been blocked, then Jehana herself might
not have been. Nobody would have realized the necessity for it.

Then, over the course of a lifetime, a person who had never been told who
they really were might have glimpses of knowledge that they could not
explain. (I suspect that many people reading this have had this same
experience.) Also, who knows what the effect would be of sharing the
sacrament of marriage, not to mention daily life, with a fully-realized
Haldane king?

Then, in a crisis situation not unlike seeing your child trapped under a
car, it is not beyond possibility that the adrenaline rush could allow her
to do things that would be impossible in ordinary circumstances. I
personally would expect some sloppiness in the untrained use of power, such
as a couple of people near the perimeter of the circle keeling right over,
or something like that, but it is, after all, fiction. You have to suspend
disbelief a little bit.

Deirdre
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

Colin Zealley wrote:
> "Mitch Edelman" <edelman.RemoveThis@umbc.edu> wrote in message
> news:ednv7g$3f9$1@linux2.gl.umbc.edu...
> [snip]
> >
> > I am not so sure that Jehana would have been aware of her heritage:
> [snip]
> > She was a full Deryni (which means both her parents were).
>
> As I recall, KK went into the genetics of the Deryni traits in an appendix
> to one of the early books (I can't remember which one offhand, I'm afraid),
> and comprehensively demolished the idea that there was actually such a thing
> as a "half blood" in fact. Of course, most CC members have not had the
> benefit of reading that discourse; so they sincerely believe that Deryni are
> a separate race. If this were the case, then intuitively, one would expect
> the powers to be diluted by interbreeding with "humans". But KK's
> explanation showed that there is no actual difference in capability between
> "full Deryni" and "half-breed" (or any other dilution), whatever the CC
> would like to believe on the matter - either you have the powers or you do
> not.
>
> Cheers
>
> Colin


Genetics thing was in High Deryni. I think Katherine regrets putting
that in the book or at least wanted to rethink it. Even in the time of
Camber, while they didn't call them half-breeds- there was a distiction
called as to "how" Deryni was a person. They didn't ban them so to
speak as the CC in Kelson's time did they just recognized that there
was a difference.
jerry
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

Mitch Edelman wrote:


> My suspicion is that at both sides of her family tree were among those
> blocked in the time of Evaine and Rhys Lord Thuryn, else her Deryni
> ancestry would have been known. Of course, that leaves open the question
> of what unblocked her dormant power ...
>


While it's certainly possible that Jehana's ancestors were blocked,
unless they were in Gwynnedd at that time it would not have been
"necessary." The anti-Deryni sentiment may have existed outside
Gwynnedd, but nowhere else did the persecution reach anything
resembling what occurred in Gwynnedd. Even if her ancestors were
blocked, that doesn't follow that she was.

*IF* there was anyone with the necessary skill and knowledge to block
powers, my guess is that it would be a member of the Anvillers. We
know that the surviving Michaelines became Anvillers, and that many of
them were highly trained Deryni. IIRC, the non-hidden topic of the
scroll found on Orin's body was the blocking of powers. I do not
recall any mention made of what happened to that scroll after Evaine's
death. Is it possible that the surviving Michaelines and Gabrielites
who joined the Anvillers have managed to secretly keep some healers,
and have the knowledge (via the scroll) to be able to block?

Pat
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

"Mitch Edelman" <edelman.DeleteThis@umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:ednv7g$3f9$1@linux2.gl.umbc.edu...
[snip]
>
> I am not so sure that Jehana would have been aware of her heritage:
[snip]
> She was a full Deryni (which means both her parents were).

As I recall, KK went into the genetics of the Deryni traits in an appendix
to one of the early books (I can't remember which one offhand, I'm afraid),
and comprehensively demolished the idea that there was actually such a thing
as a "half blood" in fact. Of course, most CC members have not had the
benefit of reading that discourse; so they sincerely believe that Deryni are
a separate race. If this were the case, then intuitively, one would expect
the powers to be diluted by interbreeding with "humans". But KK's
explanation showed that there is no actual difference in capability between
"full Deryni" and "half-breed" (or any other dilution), whatever the CC
would like to believe on the matter - either you have the powers or you do
not.

Cheers

Colin
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . . 

grayblob wrote:
> Mitch Edelman wrote:
>
>
> > My suspicion is that at both sides of her family tree were among those
> > blocked in the time of Evaine and Rhys Lord Thuryn, else her Deryni
> > ancestry would have been known. Of course, that leaves open the question
> > of what unblocked her dormant power ...
> >
>
>
> While it's certainly possible that Jehana's ancestors were blocked,
> unless they were in Gwynnedd at that time it would not have been
> "necessary." The anti-Deryni sentiment may have existed outside
> Gwynnedd, but nowhere else did the persecution reach anything
> resembling what occurred in Gwynnedd. Even if her ancestors were
> blocked, that doesn't follow that she was.
>
> *IF* there was anyone with the necessary skill and knowledge to block
> powers, my guess is that it would be a member of the Anvillers. We
> know that the surviving Michaelines became Anvillers, and that many of
> them were highly trained Deryni. IIRC, the non-hidden topic of the
> scroll found on Orin's body was the blocking of powers. I do not
> recall any mention made of what happened to that scroll after Evaine's
> death. Is it possible that the surviving Michaelines and Gabrielites
> who joined the Anvillers have managed to secretly keep some healers,
> and have the knowledge (via the scroll) to be able to block?
>
> Pat

It's true the Anvillers are a large unknown. They appear to be
essentially benevolent, if Azim is any indication, but they are a
closed society of Deryni mages who keep their own counsel. I'm sure
there are individual members of that group who are very impressively
trained mages, since Azim is easily able to teach Kelson what he needs
to know to serve at Liam's killijallay.

However....with regards to Jehana's family, I think we may be
overcomplicating things with the theory of they're having been blocked
in the sense of a Healer shutting off their powers. I think they are a
Deryni Royal family who live in a Deryni-hostile land, and are thus
suffering from full-blown self-loathing. (And possibly a few other
neuroses, as well. KK has said Jehana's mother killed herself due to
similar despair over her own powers.) At the same time, they are aware
they are a Deryni line of potent powers, and it's the conflict between
reality and the church's teachings about Deryni which makes them so
difficult to live with. They have the powers and can't give them up,
but still believe they are evil for having them. That could explain why
Jehana was sent to the convent where her self-loathing could be set in
concrete, so to speak. She TRIED to suppress acknowledging her Deryni
heritage through never using her powers, but every now and then, she
succumbed to the temptation to use them, and then spent weeks
castigating herself for it afterwards. After trying to fight Charissa
for Kelson's sake, she spends YEARS castigating herself for it.

Had Jehana grown up with no access to her powers and no reason to
suspect she ever had them, believing herself to be completely human and
"normal," I t hink she might have been a happier, calmer woman. But
probably not a very interesting one. =o)

Melissa
 >> Stay informed about: speaking of rereads . . .