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Billy Bob

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Since: May 11, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:36 am
Post subject: Value of super rare books?
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Say a book is so rare that it is not listed for sale anywhere (AddAll,
Amazon, etc.), and it only brings up one or two web sites when searching
google.com. (Those web sites being lists of books held by private
collections.)

I assume that the book would be worth more because it is so rare?

How would you determine the value of books like this?

And let's say I bought such a book for $40, and it was the only copy for
sale *anywhere*.

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john

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 11



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:45 am
Post subject: Re: Value of super rare books? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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R. Totale wrote:

>I'd estimate the proportion of books available for sale
>anywhere to those offered for sale on the Internet
>used book sites to be 1000:1 at least.

I'd be surprised if that's true, at least for English-language books
published in the US or the UK or other "white" English-speaking
countries. In terms of copies of books, you may be not be exaggerating
that hugely, but in terms of titles surely you are way over the top.
Certainly, there are titles which cannot currently be found offered for
sale online, but they are generally of a degree of scarcity that makes
it not unlikely that they are not being offered anywhere.

Take the current thread on the subject of "The Life of the Most Noble
Arthur, Duke of Wellington; from his earliest years, down to the Treaty
of Paris in 1815" (http://tinyurl.com/9j5qh). Karlsruhe
(http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/hylib/en/kvk.html) records only two
holding libraries for this work - one copy in Sweden and another at
Oxford. It is perfectly feasible that there is no copy being offered
for sale anywhere.

Or look at the similar life of Wellington, by George Elliott, mentioned
in the same thread. There are three holding libraries listed for this
(Cambridge, Nottingham and GBV Northern Germany), and two copies listed
online. It is unimaginable that - with a supposed proportion of 1000:1
of books offered elsewhere to books offered online - that there are two
thousand copies of this work being offered on the planet. Ergo, the
hypothesised proportion of 1000:1 is wrong.

Such, at least, is my rationale for disbelieving it. Can you explain
your rationale for arriving at it?

John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com

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john

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 11



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Value of super rare books? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Billy Bob wrote:

>Say a book is so rare that it is not listed for sale anywhere (AddAll,
>Amazon, etc.), and it only brings up one or two web sites when searching
>google.com. (Those web sites being lists of books held by private
>collections.)

Have you checked library sources? It's worth looking at least at LoC
(http://catalog.loc.gov/) and the Karlsruhe meta-catalogue
(http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/hylib/en/kvk.html).

To check online sales catalogues comprehensively, go to Steve Trussel's
site (http://www.trussel.com/f_books.htm).

By the way, what's the book?

John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com
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Barbara Kaufman

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Since: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 3



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Value of super rare books? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Billy Bob" <billybobnospam.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3jacl6FodgieU1@individual.net...
> Say a book is so rare that it is not listed for sale anywhere (AddAll,
Amazon, etc.), and it only brings up one or two web sites when searching
> google.com. (Those web sites being lists of books held by private
collections.)

> I assume that the book would be worth more because it is so rare?

Yes, of course

> How would you determine the value of books like this?

If there is no value reference to be found anywhere, then the only way to
determine the value would be to put it up for auction with an impossible
reserve so you are not obligated to sell it. Advertise the auction in
advance and shortly after the time of it's initial listing to venues where
you know it will garner the attention of rare book collectors. Sit back and
watch them try to reach the reserve in desperation.

> And let's say I bought such a book for $40, and it was the only copy for
sale *anywhere*.

Again, refer back to my last paragraph and make sure that you mention in
your advertisements and auction listing that as far as you know, you own the
only copy for sale anywhere.
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john

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 11



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Value of super rare books? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Billy Bob wrote:

>> I assume that the book would be worth more because it is so rare?

Barbara Kaufman commented:

>Yes, of course

I disagree. There are two criteria determining the value of an old
book. One is scarcity, the other is demand. A book may be scarce, but
if - as another respondant wrote - no one wants it then it is not
valuable.

For example, I have a book entitled Notes on the Journey by Alicia
Mulvany, published around the turn of the 19th century. It's the most
turgid doggerel imaginable. I paid, I think, about $30 for it. There
was a copy on ABE for a while at about the same kind of price. There
are two copies of another work of hers on ABE right now, going for a
song.

The scarcity of Alicia Mulvany's works is no guide to their value. Her
books are of a low value because they are twaddle. One reviewer writes:
_______________________________
No imaginable twist of the market will bring a boom in Alicia Mulvany
prices. Mulvany was responsible - or partly so - for three books:
Landmarks of a Long Life: Verses found subsequent to the author's death
(1897), Notes on the Journey (1907) ("Religious Verse, etc", specifies
the British Library, wearily) and Alicia's Diary with Shakespeare
Criticisms (1906), "the artless pastime of one who was paralysed for 18
years". This last is a 500-page chronicle of the social life of
bath-chair expatriates in Cannes. It is written in what can only be
called toff's Eurolingo: "Countess Wratislaw called après déjeuner ";
"M Portallis and his young friend sont de retour / they had gone to the
mountains pour quelques jours".
(http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1005664,00.html)
_______________________________

No matter how scarce a book may be, if no one wants it it is worthless.

John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com
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slangtruth

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Since: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 60



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Value of super rare books? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:36:05 -0700, "Billy Bob"
<billybobnospam RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

>And let's say I bought such a book for $40, and it was the only copy for
>sale *anywhere*.

Why would you think so? I'd estimate the proportion of books
available for sale anywhere to those offered for sale on the Internet
used book sites to be 1000:1 at least.
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Billy Bob

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Since: May 11, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:08 pm
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<john DeleteThis @rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
>
> By the way, what's the book?
>

Billiards and Snooker: A Trade History - Mitchell, J.R. - 1981
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BobFinnan.com

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Since: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 61



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:13 pm
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Barbara Kaufman sez:
>> I assume that the book would be worth more because it is so rare?
>Yes, of course

Not so Barbara. Unless there is demand for the bokk, the price will be
low.
There are 100's of books (if not more) that are extremely rare but do
not fetch high prices simply because no one wants them.
....................................................
Bob Finnan
http://BobFinnan.com
....................................................
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john

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 11



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:36 pm
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R. Totale wrote:

>I said "books", not titles

Indeed you did. But how helpful is that to the OP? If a title is scarce
there may actually be *more* likelihood of it being listed online,
since the seller is more likely to check it and note its apparent
scarcity.

>did not restrict it to English language
>books (a silly restriction at best I'm sure you would agree)

Well, no, I don't agree. Firstly, I have a half a suspicion the OP was
speaking about an English book, so that would render books in other
languages irrelevant. Secondly, I'm pretty immersed in books in a
number of languages. The ones I am familiar with - Japanese, Spanish,
French, etc. - appear to be listed online in about the same proportion
as English books, so the restriction was not because I thought that
discounting them would help me discredit your 1000:1 statistic, but
just because I thought it would simplify the matter.

>I don't think I was exaggerating at all.

Well, but I was asking for the rationale for your opinion, not for a
reiteration of it.

Actually, your assumption seems quite plausible in some areas of the
book world. There are over 63,000 Agatha Christies currently being
offered on ABE. If we assume that ABE covers about 50% of the online
market then, according to you, there are about 125 million Agatha
Christies being offered worldwide.

But the 50% figure is generous; when one considers that her books are
being offered - in English and other languages - on Chinese websites,
Japanese websites, etc., etc., ABE may be no more than 5% of the total.
This would mean, by your reckoning, that there may be over a billion
copies of her works in bookshops worldwide.

In theory, there are some 2 billion copies of her works floating
around. I'm not sure if that's in English or in all languages, and no
idea how many have been trashed; I googled it up at
http://sandiegoplaybill.com/reviews/reviews_hollow_coronado.html.
Anyway, neither of the two figures I have extrapolated from your 1000:1
statistic is impossible.

But, as I say, one cannot make the same extrapolations in other areas,
and the more scarce a book is the less likely one is to be able to come
up with the same kinds of figures. If there is one Shakespeare First
Folio being offered online, it is most unlikely that there are a
thousand being offered elsewhere. The same would apply to less
well-known, but fairly scarce works. I have ongoing wants listed with
ABE for works published in the 19th century which have not been offered
on ABE for all the years I have been looking. One copy of one such work
has just turned up. Are you telling me there are a thousand copies
being offered in bricks and mortar bookshops right now? I very much
doubt it. There are only a handful of copies in holding libraries, and
there are probably no more than a couple of hundred copies - at most -
in existence.

>I think for the OP to declare that no one has any particular book for sale
>=anywhere= on the basis of a Bookfinder/Addall search would be a vast
>exaggeration

True enough.

>It might approach accuracy if one had a census of all existing copies of
that particular book - but that is unlikely for his item.

What is this item? I thought he hadn't told us what it was.

>Stating that any given book can't be found for sale online at any
>particular moment might be more accurate.

Oh, it would certainly be more accurate. Still and all, I'm curious
about your rationale for the 1000:1 statistic. How did you arrive at
it?

Also, I query whether that statistic is much use when it comes to
scarcer titles. It seems to work with stuff that is plentiful, like
Agatha Christie, but breaks down hopelessly when it comes to scarce
stuff, whether it is valuable (like Shakespeare's First Folio) or not
(like the Victoriana I have been in search of for years, and expect -
if it ever comes up - to purchase for anything from $25 to $10).

John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com
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john

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Since: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 11



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:01 pm
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Here's the COPAC listing:
=============================
Title Details: Billiards & snooker : a trade history / compiled by J.R.
Mitchell
Publisher: [England] : British Sports and Allied Industries Federation,
[198-]
Physical desc.: 97p : ill ; 24cm
ISBN/ISSN: 0950742201 (pbk)
Subject: Billiards equipment industry - Great Britain - History
Great Britain, Billiards equipment industries & trades, to 1980
Other Names: Mitchell, J. R.

For holdings information select a library from those below. Those
marked with an asterisk give current availability.

Held by: British Library ; Cambridge* ; National Library of Scotland ;
Trinity College Dublin*
=============================

Nothing else by that publisher listed on ABE. Highest price on ABE for
any book on the history of billiards published between 1970 and 1990 is
Hendrick's History of Billiards (one copy at $65). Seven copies of
Everton's History of Snooker and Billiards at $9-$28. No other copies
listed.

Kris's homework suggests that Mitchell isn't the holy grail of snooker
book collectors. If it is, though, just put it on eBay with a starting
price of $30 or something and they'll be all over it in no time!

John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com
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slangtruth

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Since: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 60



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:18 pm
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On 9 Jul 2005 11:45:18 -0700, "john@rarebooksinjapan.com"
<john.DeleteThis@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote:

>R. Totale wrote:
>
>>I'd estimate the proportion of books available for sale
>>anywhere to those offered for sale on the Internet
>>used book sites to be 1000:1 at least.
>
>I'd be surprised if that's true, at least for English-language books
>published in the US or the UK or other "white" English-speaking
>countries. In terms of copies of books, you may be not be exaggerating
>that hugely, but in terms of titles surely you are way over the top.

I said "books", not titles, did not restrict it to English language
books (a silly restriction at best I'm sure you would agree), and I
don't think I was exaggerating at all. I think for the OP to declare
that no one has any particular book for sale =anywhere= on the basis
of a Bookfinder/Addall search would be a vast exaggeration, though. It
might approach accuracy if one had a census of all existing copies of
that particular book - but that is unlikely for his item. Stating that
any given book can't be found for sale online at any particular moment
might be more accurate.
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Allison Turner-

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Since: Apr 21, 2005
Posts: 35



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:08 pm
Post subject: Obscure Wants of perhaps little value (to others) (Was Re: Value of super rare books?) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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on 9 Jul 2005 14:36:06 -0700, john.TakeThisOut@rarebooksinjapan.com stated:

[statistics of rare books snipped]

>(like the Victoriana I have been in search of for years, and expect -
>if it ever comes up - to purchase for anything from $25 to $10).

What book is that? Not that it's very likely, but someone
here might just have it in their overstuffed library....

Me, I've been searching for some obscure and not-valuable
items for several years now. Titles (pamphlets) by a ~1900
female physician named Clemence Lozier (one book said she
was my great-great-great-grandfather Carroll Dunham's [another
physician] cousin; I'm not sure if that's true). I've got
one pamphlet that I happened on in ebay a few years ago; it
was being sold for peanuts with another pamphlet by someone
much more famous, so I let the seller keep whatever that other
thing was to sell again; she was happy. Haven't seen any of
the other pamphlets at all. I wished she'd actually written
a full-length book, but I don't think she did.

I also search for local stuff. My home town is so small that
almost no books are from here, though I do find a few things
now and then. One great find was a farmer's journal from
around 1890 (and I think I paid around $50 for it, probably
because it was an old handwritten journal, but not for the
location). The neighboring town has had a few publishers
over the years, and I collect books published there in the
early 1800s (I'd collect older ones, but as far as I know
there were no publishers there before 1803). They usually go
for about $20, though I have seen (and even paid, once) up to
$100+; I'm much happier if I only spend $10, which is the case
often enough. Nice to have a little shelf with ancient leather-
bound volumes of local interest. Someday I've got to find a
list of everything they published, so I know what I'm missing.

I haven't tried the abe want thing yet; mostly I've had the
best success on ebay, sifting around the occasional amusing
newbie-bidding-war mistakes. While I greatly enjoy getting
an expensive relatively high-demand book for a song, I have
to say that there is just as much satisfaction, for me, in
collecting (again, for next to nothing) a few obscure things
that no one but me appears to want.

Does anyone else here collect obscure and apparently low-
demand books or subjects? Which ones?


-Allison
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johnastovall

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Since: Oct 01, 2004
Posts: 252



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:01 pm
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Kris Baker

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Since: Jun 19, 2005
Posts: 67



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:29 pm
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"Billy Bob" <billybobnospam.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3jasjlFp1dbiU1@individual.net...
> <john.DeleteThis@rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
>>
>> By the way, what's the book?
>>
>
> Billiards and Snooker: A Trade History - Mitchell, J.R. - 1981

One slight discussion on Usenet (besides this topic),
and two websites that mention it as a bibliography
resource. No one posting anywhere that they're looking
for it, and no one trying to sell one.

Maybe you'll get lucky?

Kris
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slangtruth

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Since: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 60



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:36 am
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On 9 Jul 2005 14:36:06 -0700, "john@rarebooksinjapan.com"
<john RemoveThis @rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote:

>R. Totale wrote:
>
>>I said "books", not titles
>
>Indeed you did. But how helpful is that to the OP?

John, John, you're =way= overthinking this. My point (which I thought
could be gleaned by any thinking reader from my first message, but
which I later stated outright if it was unclear) was that a simple
search of Internet online book sites does not by any stretch of the
imagination mean that a particular book is not available for sale
=anywhere=. This information might be useful to the OP if he didn't
realize it, and does not want to look like a fool when he goes to sell
his book. I did not mean to imply that for every Shakespeare First
Folio listed online there were 1000 available and not yet listed. But
without leaving my chair I can put my hands on a book (which is not
for sale) published in 1894 in Illinois which is not only not listed
for sale on any Internet site, but is also not in any library
reporting to OCLC Worldcat, including the Library of Congress. But
nobody cares about it, and even if they did, this particular copy
(which for all I know is the last one in existence) is in shameful
condition. I bought it for a dollar because it was there in front of
me and was peripherally related to one of my interests. I would not be
in the least surprised to learn that 100 similar copies are sitting
unnoticed and uncared about in dusty little antique shops and
bookstores all over the country.

The 1000:1 was off the top of my head - it could be 100:1, could be
10000:1, but what's the difference? Nobody really knows how many books
are listed online. ABE claims 70 million on their front page, but any
given search on ABE returning the usual phantom books, POD copies,
Xeroxes and the like will show you how flawed that figure is. I've
been in more than one building that I have no doubt held a million
books for sale, and I'm not particularly well travelled. Literally
hundreds of thousands of new titles are published just in English in
any given year. That any given title from any particular time period
is not being offered online =at this moment= means just that and
nothing else.
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