How things stand: Haven/Manticore

External Since: Dec 23, 2003 Posts: 1

I was re-reading the last book, and just finished Crown of
Slaves. Someone correct me here.

As War of Honor closed we knew the following.

More than half the new ships that Haven posessed were at Trevor's
Star, yes? And they were easily outnumbered by the newer ships of
the Grayson/Manticorans.

A big chunk of what remained was probably at Sidemore, and wiped
out. What was left of that Haven fleet was probably little more
than the older ships, mostly damaged, good for little more than
backwater patrols now. So essentially, that fleet is gone, while
Harrington's fleet is intact and largely undamaged.

In a few places, with idiots in command, the Manties lost ships,
but I assume that most system commanders, faced with overwhelming
force, made their escape. Now that the Havenites are in control
of all those systems they have to disperse their forces and
picket them. The Manty ships which had been doing so can now
gather together, probably forming another fleet.

The Havenites have brought Erewhone into their group, but it's
unlikely those ships will participate in any major attack on
Manticore. Remember, it was the old government they hated, not
the Queen. The new government is made up of people they probably
think of as their friends. Meanwhile, the Manties have gotten the
Andermani Empire on board, a much bigger, more robust fleet
that's probably more than eager to hammer the Havenites.

So who is in trouble here? The Manties or Haven?

What I'd do? Gather together a fast fleet of new ships, then send
out small scouting groups consisting of a CLAC and a few
battlecruisers deep into Haven territory. Have the Havenites
undestood the possible use of those LAC's as scouts? The Manties
know the Havenites have a big shipyard somewhere. They know it's
nowhere in a highly populated area, but they can narrow it down a
lot, I'm sure. Economic and industrial activity like that can't
be hidden. Have the CLAC's drop out well beyond a suspect
system's hyper limit and launch a few stealthed LACs to check it
out. In this way they can find where that shipyard is, then swamp
its defences and wipe out all those ships still under
construction. Hell, they might not even need the big fleet.
Unless it's of CLACs. LACs might be no match for a wall of
battle, but they'll make mincemeat of a huge shipyard. Just swamp
it with thousands and thousands of nukes.

External Since: Dec 24, 2003 Posts: 2

Peter Black wrote:

> I was re-reading the last book, and just finished Crown of
> Slaves. Someone correct me here.
>
> As War of Honour closed we knew the following.
>
> More than half the new ships that Haven possessed were at Trevor's
> Star, yes? And they were easily outnumbered by the newer ships of
> the Grayson/Manticorans.
>
Yes but the allied fleet at the battle is far larger than one that manticore
or grayson could keep at Trevor's star all the time without risking both
the manticore system and yeltisn's star. In War of honour it is suggested
that haven was looking for an ally in grayson and so no early attack there
would be launched. as soon as giscard tells people the graysons were at
Trevor's star the havenites will attack yeltsin's star. a defeat there (and
if giscard attacks with 80+ of the wall a defeat there will happen) would
be bad for the allies because:

1. it would destroy grayson's space based industry. this is the bulk of
grayson's industry and would stop the grayson war effort.

2. Grayson's people, (many who object to the mantys after high ridge) would
ask a lot of questions about the loss of their home fleet and above
destruction. ie: why was our fleet defending the maties, benjinim is
manticores lacky.......

3. the loss of the grayson fleet (destroyed or defending yeltsin's star)
will put a crimp on the defence of trevor's star and any attack plans the
earl of white haven might think up....

> A big chunk of what remained was probably at Sidemore, and wiped
> out. What was left of that Haven fleet was probably little more
> than the older ships, mostly damaged, good for little more than
> backwater patrols now. So essentially, that fleet is gone, while
> Harrington's fleet is intact and largely undamaged.
>
harrington's fleet to losses too and the actal attack force was quite
small. reread the last parts of the book for more details

> In a few places, with idiots in command, the Manties lost ships,
> but I assume that most system commanders, faced with overwhelming
> force, made their escape. Now that the Havenites are in control
> of all those systems they have to disperse their forces and
> picket them. The Manty ships which had been doing so can now
> gather together, probably forming another fleet.
>
no. missiles can outrun ships and the commander would have been unwilling to
lose his postion without a fight. many would have thought they could have
won that fight too. without knowing about the haven CLACs or the full
numbers and capabilites of the haven SD(P)s. two other points:

1. Janack deployed thousands of LACs to form the mainstay of the system
pickets. LACs can't run without carriers oh yeah.. Janack stopped building
carriers.

2. at the end of war of honor the losses suffered by the RMN are disscussed.
they would seem to suggest that most of the pickets fought and lost.

> The Havenites have brought Erewhone into their group, but it's
> unlikely those ships will participate in any major attack on
> Manticore. Remember, it was the old government they hated, not
> the Queen. The new government is made up of people they probably
> think of as their friends. Meanwhile, the Manties have gotten the
> Andermani Empire on board, a much bigger, more robust fleet
> that's probably more than eager to hammer the Havenites.
>
three quick points here:

1. the erewhonese are not willing to fight for haven: first of all having
access to the erewhon junction and to a big tech transfer is pretty good
for haven. having the erewhon fleet sitting on one side is even better.

2. the erewhon goverment is likely to feel better towards the ROH than the
SEM because the ROH sorted the torch problem in the best way possible
without lots of "wait until the war is over" talk like the SKM was fond of.
they might well fight for haven.

3. who says that the andys will fight for manticore? they have got what they
want out of the sitution: a big chunk of silisea and no war with manticore.
why send their men and women of to die for an empire they were shooting at
a month or two ago?

4. the andys don't have many modern ships of the wall so the increase in
fighting power is much smaller than would normally be possabe

> So who is in trouble here? The Manties or Haven?
>

> What I'd do? Gather together a fast fleet of new ships, then send
> out small scouting groups consisting of a CLAC and a few
> battlecruisers deep into Haven territory. Have the Havenites
> undestood the possible use of those LAC's as scouts? The Manties
> know the Havenites have a big shipyard somewhere. They know it's
> nowhere in a highly populated area, but they can narrow it down a
> lot, I'm sure.

If I was building a hidden shipyard complex I would build it as far away
from anyone as possible. In other words an uninhabited system a very long
way from manticore (remember a round trip to the most distant parts of the
ROH from Trevor's star could take 4 or 5 months) I would aslo leave some
mordern ships to defend it.
Economic and industrial activity like that can't
> be hidden. Have the CLAC's drop out well beyond a suspect
> system's hyper limit and launch a few stealthed LACs to check it
> out. In this way they can find where that shipyard is, then swamp
> its defences and wipe out all those ships still under
> construction. Hell, they might not even need the big fleet.
> Unless it's of CLACs. LACs might be no match for a wall of
> battle, but they'll make mincemeat of a huge shipyard. Just swamp
> it with thousands and thousands of nukes.

If I were tom thiesman I would have a proper defense on my war-winning
shipyard. therefore a manty attack force would need lots of ships of the
wall to attack. LACs would not be much good. bolthole probaly has 100s
based there, being placed on ships and whatnot, remember what happened to
the last manty attempts at LAC attacks.

so your attack would need lots of ships of the wall (each the manties don't
have to spare) months of travel there, weeks of looking for shipyard, a
massive battle without the manties winning outright, then months of travel
home. seems a risky plan to me and the guy in charge of the manties war
effort (white haven) doesn't like riskly plans

I think the next HH book wil start with haven trying to talk peace to
manticore, the effort failing due to Queen Elizabeth, and then haven
attacking all over to destroy as much of manticore's industry and fleet
before it can return to a full war footing and rebuild its fleet. really
the situtation is about even right now... haven has failed to destroy the
RMN as per the thunderbolt plan but the RMN is in not place to
counter-attack